View Poll Results: Motorists: friends or foes? (p.s., are you a VC?)
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll
Motorists: friends or foes?
04-24-07, 04:58 PM
#51
Senior Member
Being yelled at by people with bikes on their car's rood would be a first. The poll is a little distorted with only friends/foe categories. With such a dilema, I had to go overall- a foe. There are enough , even if not a majority, to make cycling dangerous- so overall; I must rate them a threat. Because each and every day, I feel mostly threatened.
04-24-07, 04:58 PM
#52
Senior Member
Okay, if you need your "positive attitude" to ride a bike in traffic and have to use it to convince yourself that you like the unlikeable...
The only attitude I need is the one which gets my fat ass out of bed in the morning to ride into work. If I had a mere 5 mile commute, I wouldn't even drive.
I used to think like you. It required a lot of energy. Now I just ride however is easiest. I have nothing to prove to myself anymore. And if I need to ride in more challenging environments, I know I can do that too.
The only attitude I need is the one which gets my fat ass out of bed in the morning to ride into work. If I had a mere 5 mile commute, I wouldn't even drive.
I used to think like you. It required a lot of energy. Now I just ride however is easiest. I have nothing to prove to myself anymore. And if I need to ride in more challenging environments, I know I can do that too.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
04-24-07, 04:59 PM
#53
Senior Member
A "positive attitude" is a religion if that is what you rely upon to sustain a behavior. The VC Attitude is such a religion.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
04-24-07, 05:01 PM
#54
Senior Member
Uh Oh. 9 to 6. HH, you're slipping... 
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
04-24-07, 05:10 PM
#55
Senior Member
Originally Posted by HH
Who cares what they think? The more cyclists out there, the more they'll get used to it. The more cyclists out there in bike lanes, the more they'll get used to cyclists being out of the way, "like they should be."
Lessening friction out on the road is in the interest off all road users, bicyclists and drivers.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
04-24-07, 05:12 PM
#56
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
It is simply amazing how much calmer things are when there is a bike lane on the road so that motorists and cyclists can cooperate without pissing each other off. I know, noisebeam likes his 20 second honks and is deluded enough to think that this motorist is in the minority.
The other part you are missing is how many honks are avoided due to clear communication and due to cycling in a more vehicular manner.
I was yelled at by two teenage boys riding home today. Yeah, they were on bikes and riding on the sidewalk, but still felt it important to yell insults at me. Was this because I was cycling vehicularly on a road with no bike lanes?
Oh yeah, the motorist who honks for >3sec is in the minority. Its happened twice to me in 3 years of riding the same 2mi stretch of overloaded road. (6minx200dayx3yrs = 3600min = 60hrs. 52k v/day = 2.2k/hr /2 = 1.1k same direction *2 (for peak) = 2200 vehicles per hour * 60hr = 132,000 vehicles. 2 long honking drivers = .0015% long honkers)
Al
04-24-07, 05:13 PM
#57
Senior Member
Oh, the suspense. 9 to 8!
HH, you'd better rally and find some more right minded VC'ers to boost your numbers!
HH, you'd better rally and find some more right minded VC'ers to boost your numbers!
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
04-24-07, 05:16 PM
#58
Senior Member
Okay Al. Whatever gets you through your day. You have *****tier conditions than most. I'm not going to argue with you.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
04-24-07, 05:20 PM
#59
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22 posts in about an hour??? Not including posts made in other threads during the same period?
That must be some kind of record.
I guess I hit a nerve.
That must be some kind of record.
I guess I hit a nerve.
04-24-07, 05:23 PM
#60
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Brian do you really think that motorists who long honk are not in the minority?
You are right conditions are worse than yours. I ride in only a Silver Level Bike Friendly City, Portland is gold. But according to this rating, only 17 (major) cities are better than where I live.
I get friendly cooperation from so many motorists, it would be a shame to throw it away and start treating every driver as a foe. That is where I am coming from.
Al
You are right conditions are worse than yours. I ride in only a Silver Level Bike Friendly City, Portland is gold. But according to this rating, only 17 (major) cities are better than where I live.
I get friendly cooperation from so many motorists, it would be a shame to throw it away and start treating every driver as a foe. That is where I am coming from.
Al
04-24-07, 05:27 PM
#61
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
I get friendly cooperation from so many motorists, it would be a shame to throw it away and start treating every driver as a foe. That is where I am coming from.
"The vehicular-style cyclist not only acts outwardly like a driver, he knows inwardly that he is one. Instead of feeling like a tresspasser on roads owned by the cars he feels like just another driver with a slightly different vehicle, one who is participating and cooperating in the organized mutual effort to get to desired destinations with the least trouble." John Forester, Bicycle Transportation, 1994, p. 3.
04-24-07, 05:29 PM
#62
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
Brian do you really think that motorists who long honk are not in the minority?
You are right conditions are worse than yours. I ride in only a Silver Level Bike Friendly City, Portland is gold. But according to this rating, only 17 (major) cities are better than where I live.
I get friendly cooperation from so many motorists, it would be a shame to throw it away and start treating every driver as a foe. That is where I am coming from.
Al
You are right conditions are worse than yours. I ride in only a Silver Level Bike Friendly City, Portland is gold. But according to this rating, only 17 (major) cities are better than where I live.
I get friendly cooperation from so many motorists, it would be a shame to throw it away and start treating every driver as a foe. That is where I am coming from.
Al
When I drove and got behind cyclists, I would have loved nothing more than to lay on the horn when they were in my way. But unfortunately (fortunately??) my truck had neither a horn, nor a stereo, nor operable windows, nor...
04-24-07, 05:29 PM
#63
Senior Member
noisebeam: Remember, I never said that drivers were friends or foes. I said that drivers are people, no more, no less. HH is trying to force a dichotomy where there is none.
HH: Yea, you hit a nerve. You personally insulted me.
HH: Yea, you hit a nerve. You personally insulted me.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
04-24-07, 05:31 PM
#64
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Al's words, on the other hand, exemplify the positive attitude of a vehicular-cyclist. Way to go, Al.
"The vehicular-style cyclist not only acts outwardly like a driver, he knows inwardly that he is one. Instead of feeling like a tresspasser on roads owned by the cars he feels like just another driver with a slightly different vehicle, one who is participating and cooperating in the organized mutual effort to get to desired destinations with the least trouble." John Forester, Bicycle Transportation, 1994, p. 3.
"The vehicular-style cyclist not only acts outwardly like a driver, he knows inwardly that he is one. Instead of feeling like a tresspasser on roads owned by the cars he feels like just another driver with a slightly different vehicle, one who is participating and cooperating in the organized mutual effort to get to desired destinations with the least trouble." John Forester, Bicycle Transportation, 1994, p. 3.
The truth is, *most* roads now a days ARE made for motor traffic and very little thought if any is put towards accomodating cyclists. Or so that statement stands true around these parts, and I'm sure many others.
I don't need an attitude to ride in traffic, all I need are two wheels and a set of pedals.
04-24-07, 05:32 PM
#65
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
I used to think like this too. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to work that way. The more cyclists on the road, PLUS better accomodation to keep friction between cyclist and drivers low, makes for better attitudes all around. It seems that motorists aren't unrational cows as have been implied here. They don't yell because they are bigots or haters or idiots. They yell and honk because we are, by necessity of the road design, in the way. They are ANNOYED. Put some well concieved bike lanes on a road, and all of the sudden, everything's gravy. Even when I take a lane: no problem. Because they know that I have a lane of my own that I'll shortly be back to using.
Lessening friction out on the road is in the interest off all road users, bicyclists and drivers.
Lessening friction out on the road is in the interest off all road users, bicyclists and drivers.
04-24-07, 05:34 PM
#66
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Originally Posted by John Forester
You have postulated a road design that is inadequate. "They [motorists] yell and honk because we are, by necessity of the road design, in the way." Correcting the design so that motorists have room to overtake cyclists does not take a bike-lane stripe, which cannot be installed there. What is required is roadway widening, which solves the problem without the additional complications produced by having a bike-lane stripe. So don't praise the bike lane in this situation, because it is not only irrelevant, but the praise shows your bias.
People are *******s. I know, because I'm one of them.
04-24-07, 05:41 PM
#67
Senior Member
Originally Posted by John Forester
You have postulated a road design that is inadequate. "They [motorists] yell and honk because we are, by necessity of the road design, in the way." Correcting the design so that motorists have room to overtake cyclists does not take a bike-lane stripe, which cannot be installed there. What is required is roadway widening, which solves the problem without the additional complications produced by having a bike-lane stripe. So don't praise the bike lane in this situation, because it is not only irrelevant, but the praise shows your bias.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
04-24-07, 05:49 PM
#68
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Yeah, let's just widen the roadway some more. keep on pavin'! it's the American Dream<TM>
04-24-07, 05:53 PM
#69
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Originally Posted by randya
Yeah, let's just widen the roadway some more. keep on pavin'! it's the American Dream<TM>
04-24-07, 06:02 PM
#70
Senior Member
9 to 9! We're tied!
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
04-24-07, 06:17 PM
#71
Senior Member
Hey, HH. You seem to be the keeper of the definition of Vehicular Cyclist. Am I a vehicular cyclist? I'm confused now. I don't know how to vote in your poll. I seem to have this syndrome they keep talking about. Must have caught it from a fellow cyclist I met on the road yesterday. Doctors don't have a cure for it yet.
I mean, I do everything that John Forester taught me (though this syndrome thing gives me a predilection for bike lanes that I just can't figure out). I take lanes. I ride through all sorts of traffic on all sorts of roads. Yet, I just don't love those motorists who yell or blast past me with inches to spare. I just don't have that VC Attitude. Does that make me less of a VC'ist?
I mean, I do everything that John Forester taught me (though this syndrome thing gives me a predilection for bike lanes that I just can't figure out). I take lanes. I ride through all sorts of traffic on all sorts of roads. Yet, I just don't love those motorists who yell or blast past me with inches to spare. I just don't have that VC Attitude. Does that make me less of a VC'ist?
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
04-24-07, 06:19 PM
#72
Senior Member
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Al's words, on the other hand, exemplify the positive attitude of a vehicular-cyclist. Way to go, Al.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
04-24-07, 06:46 PM
#73
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Hey, HH. You seem to be the keeper of the definition of Vehicular Cyclist. Am I a vehicular cyclist? I'm confused now. I don't know how to vote in your poll. I seem to have this syndrome they keep talking about. Must have caught it from a fellow cyclist I met on the road yesterday. Doctors don't have a cure for it yet.
I mean, I do everything that John Forester taught me (though this syndrome thing gives me a predilection for bike lanes that I just can't figure out). I take lanes. I ride through all sorts of traffic on all sorts of roads. Yet, I just don't love those motorists who yell or blast past me with inches to spare. I just don't have that VC Attitude. Does that make me less of a VC'ist?
I mean, I do everything that John Forester taught me (though this syndrome thing gives me a predilection for bike lanes that I just can't figure out). I take lanes. I ride through all sorts of traffic on all sorts of roads. Yet, I just don't love those motorists who yell or blast past me with inches to spare. I just don't have that VC Attitude. Does that make me less of a VC'ist?
As to voting in the poll, it's a matter of how you think of yourself. What I'm looking for is to see if there is a correlation between self-described vehicular cyclists and generally viewing traffic as a cooperative/friendly environment as opposed to competitive/unfriendly environment.
04-24-07, 07:05 PM
#74
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
First your tribute to cyclist inferiority, then your inability to see why your dad's test of riding outside of a bike lane between intersections in the presence of faster same direction traffic was not vehicular, and actually calling that "ulimate vc", has really surprised me. I used to think of you as a Hiles-like (you really should read "Listening to Bike lanes" by Jeffrey Hiles if you haven't already - free pdf download, google for it) or a JRAish vehicular cyclist, one who understood vehicular cycling, practiced it, but still objected to some of the VC advocacy/philosophy, particularly the anti-BL aspects, but today you've really given me pause about that assessment. I'm beginning to wonder whether you "get it" at all (which of course is required to practice it).
As to voting in the poll, it's a matter of how you think of yourself. What I'm looking for is to see if there is a correlation between self-described vehicular cyclists and generally viewing traffic as a cooperative/friendly environment as opposed to competitive/unfriendly environment.
As to voting in the poll, it's a matter of how you think of yourself. What I'm looking for is to see if there is a correlation between self-described vehicular cyclists and generally viewing traffic as a cooperative/friendly environment as opposed to competitive/unfriendly environment.
Can you please explain this to me?
04-24-07, 07:07 PM
#75
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Originally Posted by pj7
Inferiority??
Can you please explain this to me?
Can you please explain this to me?