Cyclist Inferiority - discussion
05-02-07, 08:20 AM
#176
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
I don't know if this helps the discussion, but laws are different in different places. Recently Oregon passed a law specifically allowing cyclists to move ahead to the head of a line of traffic on the right if there is sufficient space to do so, even if there is no bike lane. That we had to pass a new law specifically allowing this maneuver indicates that before, it was illegal, even if not enforced.
05-02-07, 09:22 AM
#177
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Originally Posted by deputyjones
O yeah, just keep rollin' HH. Lots of advocacy getting done here. I was trying to be a nice guy and throw out an olive branch. O well, next time I will just stick with the wolf pack.Anyway, in order to be cited for something, or arrested for something, some specific statute has to be cited that has been allegedly violated. So, can anyone cite a law from any state that makes it illegal, specifically or somehow generally, to pass a line of cars on the right?
I seem to recall that it is definitely illegal in some states, but I did not keep the links when they were posted in the past.
05-02-07, 09:59 AM
#178
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In AZ where collector streets intersect arterials there is usually only a double yellow on the collector street. The remaining lane is at least two cars wide. Traffic going thru lines up on the left side of this wide lane adjacent to double yellow. Traffic turning right filters forward to the right of the line of thru cars.
https://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatD...28&DocType=ARS
Al
https://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatD...28&DocType=ARS
Al
05-02-07, 10:02 AM
#179
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Originally Posted by joejack951
Seems similar to the 3 foot passing law in that it's a clarification and not necessarily legalizing something that was previously illegal. What does the Oregon vehicle code currently say about passing on the right for all vehicles?
(2) For purposes of this section, a person
may drive a vehicle to overtake and pass
upon the right of another vehicle under any
of the following circumstances:
(a) Overtaking and passing upon the
right is permitted if:
(A) The overtaken vehicle is making or
the driver has signaled an intention to make
a left turn;
(B) The paved portion of the highway is
of sufficient width to allow two or more
lanes of vehicles to proceed lawfully in the
same direction as the overtaking vehicle; and
(C) The roadway ahead of the overtaking
vehicle is unobstructed for a sufficient distance
to permit passage by the overtaking
vehicle to be made in safety.
(b) Overtaking and passing upon the
right is permitted if the overtaken vehicle is
proceeding along a roadway in the left lane
of two or more clearly marked lanes allocated
exclusively to vehicular traffic moving
in the same direction as the overtaking
driver.
(c) Overtaking and passing upon the
right is permitted if the overtaking vehicle
is a bicycle that may safely make the passage
under the existing conditions.
Note how the two bolded sections say the same thing but one is specific to cyclists for some unknown reason. Also note the differences between (B) and (b). Basically, if the width is there, it's legal even without (c).
05-02-07, 10:07 AM
#180
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I seem to recall that it is definitely illegal in some states, but I did not keep the links when they were posted in the past.
According to motorcyclist websites, motorcyclist filtering is illegal in all states except California (where it's not expressly prohibited and where CHP policy apparently is that they going to allow motorcyclists to do it).
Discussed in the thread, "Are WOLs VC in Arizona?"
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=279396&page=3
If bicyclist filtering on a laned roadway is legal, that's a special rule that applies only to bicyclists.
05-02-07, 10:14 AM
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Cutting and pasting from another thread:
2005 OREGON VEHICLE CODE (regarding motorcycles)
814.240 Motorcycle or moped unlawful passing; penalty. (1) A motorcycle operator or moped operator commits the offense of motorcycle or moped unlawful passing in a lane with a vehicle if the operator does any of the following:
(a) Overtakes and passes in the same lane occupied by the vehicle the operator is overtaking, unless the vehicle being passed is a motorcycle or a moped...
https://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/814.html
From the thread, "Are WOLs VC in Arizona?"
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=279396&page=3
That Oregon law is pretty clear. Lane-sharing (for motorcyclists) is not 'vehicular' (it is expressly prohibited in the vehicular rules of the road).
2005 OREGON VEHICLE CODE (regarding motorcycles)
814.240 Motorcycle or moped unlawful passing; penalty. (1) A motorcycle operator or moped operator commits the offense of motorcycle or moped unlawful passing in a lane with a vehicle if the operator does any of the following:
(a) Overtakes and passes in the same lane occupied by the vehicle the operator is overtaking, unless the vehicle being passed is a motorcycle or a moped...
https://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/814.html
From the thread, "Are WOLs VC in Arizona?"
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=279396&page=3
That Oregon law is pretty clear. Lane-sharing (for motorcyclists) is not 'vehicular' (it is expressly prohibited in the vehicular rules of the road).
05-02-07, 10:56 AM
#182
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Originally Posted by JRA
Cutting and pasting from another thread:
2005 OREGON VEHICLE CODE (regarding motorcycles)
814.240 Motorcycle or moped unlawful passing; penalty. (1) A motorcycle operator or moped operator commits the offense of motorcycle or moped unlawful passing in a lane with a vehicle if the operator does any of the following:
(a) Overtakes and passes in the same lane occupied by the vehicle the operator is overtaking, unless the vehicle being passed is a motorcycle or a moped...
https://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/814.html
From the thread, "Are WOLs VC in Arizona?"
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=279396&page=3
That Oregon law is pretty clear. Lane-sharing (for motorcyclists) is not 'vehicular' (it is expressly prohibited in the vehicular rules of the road).
2005 OREGON VEHICLE CODE (regarding motorcycles)
814.240 Motorcycle or moped unlawful passing; penalty. (1) A motorcycle operator or moped operator commits the offense of motorcycle or moped unlawful passing in a lane with a vehicle if the operator does any of the following:
(a) Overtakes and passes in the same lane occupied by the vehicle the operator is overtaking, unless the vehicle being passed is a motorcycle or a moped...
https://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/814.html
From the thread, "Are WOLs VC in Arizona?"
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=279396&page=3
That Oregon law is pretty clear. Lane-sharing (for motorcyclists) is not 'vehicular' (it is expressly prohibited in the vehicular rules of the road).
05-02-07, 11:00 AM
#183
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Originally Posted by JRA
I don't know of a law specifically regarding bicyclists but it's illegal for drivers of other vehicles to filter on a laned roadway.
According to motorcyclist websites, motorcyclist filtering is illegal in all states except California (where it's not expressly prohibited and where CHP policy apparently is that they going to allow motorcyclists to do it).
Discussed in the thread, "Are WOLs VC in Arizona?"
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=279396&page=3
If bicyclist filtering on a laned roadway is legal, that's a special rule that applies only to bicyclists.
According to motorcyclist websites, motorcyclist filtering is illegal in all states except California (where it's not expressly prohibited and where CHP policy apparently is that they going to allow motorcyclists to do it).
Discussed in the thread, "Are WOLs VC in Arizona?"
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=279396&page=3
If bicyclist filtering on a laned roadway is legal, that's a special rule that applies only to bicyclists.
In particular, I don't think it applies to passing slowing/stopped traffic on the right in order to make a right turn, which is legal even for drivers of cars.
Anyway, taking into account unique physical and operational characteristics of vehicles is incorporated into the vehicular rules of the road - this is why there are vehicle-type-specific laws. Therefore it is perfectly "vehicular" to allow bicyclists to do something that is generally not allowed for drivers of others types of vehicles.
It is interesting that VC-contrarians are always trying to disingenuously argue against a strawman extremist version of VC that no VC-ist recognizes much less promotes.
05-02-07, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by joejack951
Note how the two bolded sections say the same thing but one is specific to cyclists for some unknown reason. Also note the differences between (B) and (b). Basically, if the width is there, it's legal even without (c).
Another item of interest from the Oregon vehicle code:
811.385 Depriving motorcycle or moped of full lane; penalty. (1) A person commits the offense of depriving a motorcycle or moped of a full lane if the person operates a motor vehicle upon a roadway laned for traffic in a manner that prevents a moped operator or motorcyclist from full use of a lane.
(2) This section does not apply to operators of motorcycles or mopeds whose use of lanes is controlled by ORS 814.240 and 814.250.
(3) The offense described in this section, depriving a motorcycle or moped of a full lane, is a Class B traffic violation. [1983 c.338 §685]
Note that this does not specifically apply to cyclists, but probably should.
Last edited by randya; 05-02-07 at 12:40 PM.
05-02-07, 12:37 PM
#185
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Thanks randya.
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05-02-07, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by randya
811.385 Depriving motorcycle or moped of full lane; penalty. (1) A person commits the offense of depriving a motorcycle or moped of a full lane if the person operates a motor vehicle upon a roadway laned for traffic in a manner that prevents a moped operator or motorcyclist from full use of a lane.
Note that this does not specifically apply to cyclists, but probably should.
05-02-07, 12:43 PM
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Are you having reading comprehension problems? It prohibits four wheelers from lane sharing with motorized two wheeled vehicles. Exactly what the VCers advocate should be legal when bicyclists are present. When I'm in the lane, I don't want any motorist sharing it with me. I guess ORS 814.430(2)(c) covers the bicyclist situation (lane too narrow for a motor vehicle and bicyclist to share side-by-side), but it would be a lot less ambiguous if bicycles were added to 811.385.
05-02-07, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by randya
Are you having reading comprehension problems? It prohibits four wheelers from lane sharing with motorized two wheeled vehicles.
05-05-07, 11:05 AM
#189
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Originally Posted by randya
As far as the cop on the street, lanes or lines, what's the difference? You're gonna get a ticket in most cities and states unless bikes are specifically allowed by law to pass on the right in the same lane, or a bike lane is present in which they can do so.
So even with VC, it's legal in a lot of jurisdictions for a motorist to pass on the left in a shared lane, but not for a bicyclist to pass on the right in that same shared lane. So much for 'equality under the law'.
If CHP takes a liberal viewpoint of the California code, it's probably because at one point Hells Angels suggested that it was a good idea for them to not take this filtering thing too seriously, or a clever attorney got some case law on the books.
So even with VC, it's legal in a lot of jurisdictions for a motorist to pass on the left in a shared lane, but not for a bicyclist to pass on the right in that same shared lane. So much for 'equality under the law'.
If CHP takes a liberal viewpoint of the California code, it's probably because at one point Hells Angels suggested that it was a good idea for them to not take this filtering thing too seriously, or a clever attorney got some case law on the books.
05-05-07, 11:42 AM
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In Barcelona, all the scooters and motorbikers - sometimes up to 50% of the total traffic volume - filter to the front, and will leave enmass even before the light changes if the (lack of) cross traffic allows it. The whole time I was there I never saw anyone stopped for doing this.
05-05-07, 03:07 PM
#191
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Originally Posted by randya
The Oregon code you cite is almost identical to the California code, yet Oregon LEOs did not interpret it to allow filtering or passing on the right by a bicycle in the same lane. Hence, the one specific to bikes was just added by the 2005 legislature, effective 1/1/06.
05-08-07, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by joejack951
From the Oregon vehicle code:
(2) For purposes of this section, a person
may drive a vehicle to overtake and pass
upon the right of another vehicle under any
of the following circumstances:
(a) Overtaking and passing upon the
right is permitted if:
(A) The overtaken vehicle is making or
the driver has signaled an intention to make
a left turn;
(B) The paved portion of the highway is
of sufficient width to allow two or more
lanes of vehicles to proceed lawfully in the
same direction as the overtaking vehicle; and
(C) The roadway ahead of the overtaking
vehicle is unobstructed for a sufficient distance
to permit passage by the overtaking
vehicle to be made in safety.
(b) Overtaking and passing upon the
right is permitted if the overtaken vehicle is
proceeding along a roadway in the left lane
of two or more clearly marked lanes allocated
exclusively to vehicular traffic moving
in the same direction as the overtaking
driver.
(c) Overtaking and passing upon the
right is permitted if the overtaking vehicle
is a bicycle that may safely make the passage
under the existing conditions.
Note how the two bolded sections say the same thing but one is specific to cyclists for some unknown reason. Also note the differences between (B) and (b). Basically, if the width is there, it's legal even without (c).
(2) For purposes of this section, a person
may drive a vehicle to overtake and pass
upon the right of another vehicle under any
of the following circumstances:
(a) Overtaking and passing upon the
right is permitted if:
(A) The overtaken vehicle is making or
the driver has signaled an intention to make
a left turn;
(B) The paved portion of the highway is
of sufficient width to allow two or more
lanes of vehicles to proceed lawfully in the
same direction as the overtaking vehicle; and
(C) The roadway ahead of the overtaking
vehicle is unobstructed for a sufficient distance
to permit passage by the overtaking
vehicle to be made in safety.
(b) Overtaking and passing upon the
right is permitted if the overtaken vehicle is
proceeding along a roadway in the left lane
of two or more clearly marked lanes allocated
exclusively to vehicular traffic moving
in the same direction as the overtaking
driver.
(c) Overtaking and passing upon the
right is permitted if the overtaking vehicle
is a bicycle that may safely make the passage
under the existing conditions.
Note how the two bolded sections say the same thing but one is specific to cyclists for some unknown reason. Also note the differences between (B) and (b). Basically, if the width is there, it's legal even without (c).
John
05-19-07, 10:40 AM
#193
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I invite all you 'vc solves all problems' cyclist inferiority advocates to jump over to this thread and explain to this gal how vc would have prevented her bad experience and how she is a cyclist inferior wussy for letting idiots get to her.
https://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/300008-my-commute-sucked-spitting-honking-yelling.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/300008-my-commute-sucked-spitting-honking-yelling.html
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
05-19-07, 12:58 PM
#194
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from another thread:
automobiles are bigger, heavier and more powerful than bicycles. that a bicycle is lighter, smaller and more maneuverable does not make up for the fact that in a car/bicycle collision, the bike rider will be the worse off. the tons of steel and seat belts and air bags in cars help insure that in a car/car collision, the odds are better of surviving.
CIC does not exist-- rather it is simply an observation based on reality on the part of the bicyclist that they are more vulnerable than their counterparts in cars.
what they DO about this observation is the thing.
some will boldly take the lane and assert their rights.
some will hug the curb
some will find less-travelled routes
some will get on the sidewalk
some will not do it, ever.
most cyclists I see are in the bike lanes, on less travelled routes, or on the sidewalks (not illegal where I live)
automobiles are bigger, heavier and more powerful than bicycles. that a bicycle is lighter, smaller and more maneuverable does not make up for the fact that in a car/bicycle collision, the bike rider will be the worse off. the tons of steel and seat belts and air bags in cars help insure that in a car/car collision, the odds are better of surviving.
CIC does not exist-- rather it is simply an observation based on reality on the part of the bicyclist that they are more vulnerable than their counterparts in cars.
what they DO about this observation is the thing.
some will boldly take the lane and assert their rights.
some will hug the curb
some will find less-travelled routes
some will get on the sidewalk
some will not do it, ever.
most cyclists I see are in the bike lanes, on less travelled routes, or on the sidewalks (not illegal where I live)
Last edited by rando; 05-19-07 at 05:45 PM.
05-19-07, 03:26 PM
#195
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Originally Posted by chipcom
I invite all you 'vc solves all problems' cyclist inferiority advocates to jump over to this thread and explain to this gal how vc would have prevented her bad experience and how she is a cyclist inferior wussy for letting idiots get to her.
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=300008
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=300008
Originally Posted by Ginny
So, I commuted both directions yesterday for the first time.
My commute to work is all downhill, which means all uphill
going home. But I leave at 7 so the traffic isn't as bad.
I was really apprehensive leaving work. I put on my HRM and
it read 140 bpm (60%) as I was locking my salon door. I wasn't
looking forward to bikeing home alone.
I hit the hills and stayed way right, doing all of 5 mph on the longest
steepest hill (steep for me at least). When I reached the top, no one had
buzzed me, no one yelled, I was feelin' pretty good! The rest was through
a residential rich area and flat the rest of the way home. Even after the
hills I was hitting 22mph on the flats. I was smiling! I was doin' it! Yeah, me!
Then I got out of the rich area and it all came to a head.
On a two lane each way, 2 miles from home, I hear a vehicle
approch from behind and I figure they are going to go around. Instead
they get RIGHT behind me and lay on the horn for maybe 10 seconds.
SCARED the Sh*t out of me! Adrenaline starts rushing, I'm getting
shaky and they go around but get right in front of me again maybe 12 inches
from my front tire, laughing and hooting the whole time. Then they lay
on the gas squeal away. I calm down at the next light. Take a drink and
feel like 'okay, that wasn't so bad, I'm okay'. Light changes and I go and am
up to 18 mph in just a few seconds. Adrenaline muct still be kickin'!
Then another red pick up goes by, I hear 'f-ing *****' and the passenger GUY
spits out the window, a lugie lands on my arm! I'm trying to get that off
me and they start laughing and take off! No, I didn't get a license, much
more attention in trying to get that gross off me. I stop at the next light
and squirt my water bottle all over my arm. And start to have a panic attack.
My throat is closing up, I'm trying not to lose control of my bike, I can see my street
from here.
I am about to turn onto my street and yet another RED truck honks and yells
something out the window. I don't hear what it is, I'm trying to breathe!
I ride onto my street and cool down, my throat opens and I begin to cry.
I'm a girl, what can I say.
I'm low blood sugar at that point, the world looks like a really bad place
and everyone in the world sucks. I go in and call the DH who is in Yellowstone
with my son's 6th grade trip and cry to him. Then I go take a scalding hot shower.
I lay on my bed and am surreounded by my other 3 kids who make the world
a better place and I go to bed.
I drove to work today. My safety and peace of mind is worth more that $3.15
a gallon!
So, how was YOUR commute!
My commute to work is all downhill, which means all uphill
going home. But I leave at 7 so the traffic isn't as bad.
I was really apprehensive leaving work. I put on my HRM and
it read 140 bpm (60%) as I was locking my salon door. I wasn't
looking forward to bikeing home alone.
I hit the hills and stayed way right, doing all of 5 mph on the longest
steepest hill (steep for me at least). When I reached the top, no one had
buzzed me, no one yelled, I was feelin' pretty good! The rest was through
a residential rich area and flat the rest of the way home. Even after the
hills I was hitting 22mph on the flats. I was smiling! I was doin' it! Yeah, me!
Then I got out of the rich area and it all came to a head.
On a two lane each way, 2 miles from home, I hear a vehicle
approch from behind and I figure they are going to go around. Instead
they get RIGHT behind me and lay on the horn for maybe 10 seconds.
SCARED the Sh*t out of me! Adrenaline starts rushing, I'm getting
shaky and they go around but get right in front of me again maybe 12 inches
from my front tire, laughing and hooting the whole time. Then they lay
on the gas squeal away. I calm down at the next light. Take a drink and
feel like 'okay, that wasn't so bad, I'm okay'. Light changes and I go and am
up to 18 mph in just a few seconds. Adrenaline muct still be kickin'!
Then another red pick up goes by, I hear 'f-ing *****' and the passenger GUY
spits out the window, a lugie lands on my arm! I'm trying to get that off
me and they start laughing and take off! No, I didn't get a license, much
more attention in trying to get that gross off me. I stop at the next light
and squirt my water bottle all over my arm. And start to have a panic attack.
My throat is closing up, I'm trying not to lose control of my bike, I can see my street
from here.
I am about to turn onto my street and yet another RED truck honks and yells
something out the window. I don't hear what it is, I'm trying to breathe!
I ride onto my street and cool down, my throat opens and I begin to cry.
I'm a girl, what can I say.
I'm low blood sugar at that point, the world looks like a really bad place
and everyone in the world sucks. I go in and call the DH who is in Yellowstone
with my son's 6th grade trip and cry to him. Then I go take a scalding hot shower.
I lay on my bed and am surreounded by my other 3 kids who make the world
a better place and I go to bed.
I drove to work today. My safety and peace of mind is worth more that $3.15
a gallon!
So, how was YOUR commute!
)
__________________
No worries
No worries
Last edited by LittleBigMan; 05-19-07 at 03:36 PM.
05-19-07, 06:01 PM
#196
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Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
VC does not solve this problem.
VC-ism doesn't solve any problems; all VC-ism does is turn cyclists against cyclists and create problems.
05-20-07, 07:32 PM
#197
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Originally Posted by JRA
Nobody has a solution to this problem.
VC-ism doesn't solve any problems; all VC-ism does is turn cyclists against cyclists and create problems.
VC-ism doesn't solve any problems; all VC-ism does is turn cyclists against cyclists and create problems.
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05-20-07, 07:46 PM
#198
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Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
VC does not solve this problem. This problem is solved by punching redneck faces until they turn into busted red tomatos. eh, Chipman? )
)
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
05-21-07, 07:16 PM
#199
Sumanitu taka owaci
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Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
VC does not solve this problem. This problem is solved by punching redneck faces until they turn into busted red tomatos. eh, Chipman? )
)
Originally Posted by chipcom
Like hitting a redneck in the head ever made one smarter. Better to blow em a kiss so they spend the next three weeks fretting about their manhood.
Of course, I'm just talking tough. I'd probably just hurt myself trying to throw a punch at my age.
(but I can kick like a mule...and jump like a jackass! )
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05-22-07, 06:59 AM
#200
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Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
VC does not solve this problem. This problem is solved by punching redneck faces until they turn into busted red tomatos. eh, Chipman? )
)No, VC doesn't solve this problem... and in fact the proponents of VC constantly suggest that you have to have the right attitude to "perform."