Aqualung can ride anywhere.

Do not confuse the occasional use of gutter space in very particular circumstances for an unwilingness to share or control lanes where required.

Hmmm, too late on that one man.... but I won't hold it against you

Nonsense. You are simply using a sophist's trick in an attempt to discredit someone's opinion and their experience. Why can't you accept opinion as opinion and experience as experience? If you have an opposing opinion, express it. If you have had a different experience, I'm sure everyone is dying to read what your experience has been. Opinion and experience are neither wrong nor right.

This stunt you pull of trying to prove someone else's opinion wrong is absurd, argumentative and insulting.

Did someone claim that harassment is independent of cycling behavior or location? My experience (which I invite you to disprove is my experience, and ask a million pointless questions about) is that both location and cyclist behavior are important factors, as are the clothes the cyclist wears, how the cyclist combs their hair, lateral lane position, speed (and other drugs) and the phase of the moon.

There are some areas of St. Louis County where, if I rode the right bike, wore the right clothes and combed my hair right, I could probably ride virtually forever without much chance of being harassed. There are other areas where, despite not riding there a whole lot, I have been harassed more than a couple of times. Is that a coincidence, or is location important factor?

Yes, or at least approaches being nearly indepdent. See post #91:

There's the thing that burns HH...I ride more VC than he does - especially when it comes to following the laws and controlling the lane in situations that would make his single hair turn grey - yet I don't drink the kool-aid and have no problem with others' right to ride in the manner that they choose - but you think I'd be one of those "VCs"? No way, cuz I AM A HERETIC!!

My theory is that part of the reason why HH thinks all the drivers are so friendly is because he spends so much time on 'autopilot' with his head stuck squarely in the same space that his brain resides, daydreaming about wacky theories - so he wouldn't notice a honk if it was from the goose he just ran over.

Driver attitude is indeed related to location to anyone with a lick of common sense. For example, if I am riding on the part of my commute that has a high number of cyclists using the nice wide-laned road, harassment is very rare, while on some of the narrow country roads on that same commute, honks and such are more common because the drivers are not used to bikes and frustrated at us getting in their way. In the downtown or suburban strip mall areas around rush hour, harrassment is even higher...to everyone, not just cyclists, because everyone is impatient, in a hurry and downright grouchy. Location, time of day, etc. have much more to do with driver attitudes than how one rides...and I'll go one step further...in the downtown/suburban areas I mentioned, drivers REALLY get peeved at the cyclists who ride "VC" rather than on the sidewalk, the shoulder or on some path - cuz we're in their way.

Now watch the dogma-infested, hard core VC cultists scream bloody murder.

No one has argued that driver attitude or harassment is not related to location.
And no one has said anything that would indicate anything contrary to a sidewalk cyclist getting less harassment than a cyclist on the road.

Again, the underlying issue is how much the factors of location and cyclist behavior play a role in determining how much a given cyclist, who is riding on the road, is harassed.

Chip, chip, chip, ya really gotta learn to crank up the aura-foo that turns the cagers into doe eyed little four wheeled marshmallows. Concentrate on your navel...concentrate on your navel...concentrate on your navel....ya feel it...Concentrate...

I guess I don't understand your response to that one - I clearly did say that behavior is dependant upon location - not independent. I felt no reason to include behavior becasue I ride as I should on a road - I ride like I belong there and I follow the rules of the road - I'm just not "VC"

I will say now though that in my experience, LOCATION is much more of a factor then behavior of the rider in terms of getting honked and yelled at by motorists. Then again, I refuse to wear spandex, so who knows? I prefer to ride like I know what I'm doing rather then dress like it.

Ah ha! The plot thickens!

If you don't look like Lance, you don't belong on the road.

(don't blame the messenger - that's just how they think about it)

Personally, I think the JAMs like you even less if you're decked out in kit.

^^^ absolutely right.

So you're saying that I need a plexiglass belly-button to see out of, kinda like HH?

So what, then behavior isn't all that important? Why ride assertively if it is more important to dress up? I'm having a lot less faith in the whole "VC" dogma if behavior is not as important as location and "dress code"

Hogwash. It's how you THINK they think about it, from within the confines of your little fishbowl, hardly anything that could be extended to cover the rest of the country or the world.

Reading comprehension problem?

2+

That kind of depends on where you ride.

I'm not interested in your debates with Forester about how he interprets his numbers.

We have our own numbers for our local municipalities and our state, including crash statistics, crash descriptions, police reports, transportation planning research, cyclist surveys, etc.

I've tried my best to find local evidence that conflicts with the predictions of the vehicular cycling principle, with no success. I consider it my responsibility to do so, as a skeptical thinker, before engaging on any public advocacy on the matter, or making decisions on a planning board about the future shape or our city. I've often debated Forester about concerns with high-speed roadways, the effects of right-turn-only lanes and free-flowing merges/diverges, and the merits of planning road topology and land use to encourage cycling. The general conclusion has been that vehicular cycling is a valid concept, but that some environments are more hospitable to vehicular cyclists than others, and that it is possible (and preferable) to design the environment better to improve conditions for drivers of slower, open, narrow vehicles in a manner compatible with the vehicular cycling principle.

What's kit?

Team kit, spandex and jersey

If my jersey and cycling shorts have no logos on them, because I bought plain ones myself, does this mean I am not wearing a kit?

Personally, I'd feel as silly riding to work in a logo jersey as I would driving a minivan covered with nascar sponsor stickers.

However, I won't ever go back to wearing cotton on the bike.

Yada, yada, yada about road engineering and Cary, N.C. too. No one is discussing road building/road design as a vehicular cycling concept except you and Forester.

I am not surprised you want to avoid the subject of the credibility of the fundamental Vehicular Cycling premise/conclusion about "Vehicular Cyclists faring best." You know, the "faring best" premise/conclusion with no measured metrics or definitions of what constitutes "faring best". Only the various Forester Brand safety analyses and tests and statistical mumbo jumbo that Forester and his associates claim are the best evidence that prove their premise/mantra. But you choose to ignore the issue of lack of validity of Forester furnished "scientific evidence" and conclude that vehicular cycling is valid by sticking to discussing esoteric road design concepts. Works for you, eh?

I think it's more the spandex shorts and bright-colored jersies that set off some of the more redneck-oriented and possibily homophobic drivers...the team/sponsor logos probably don't make much of a difference - unless the driver is a cyclist and hates alleged poseurs.

Riding in regular cargo shorts, shirt, ball cap, etc. almost always gets me treated better by drivers than when wearing clothing that looks more like cycling kit - and more space too. At the same time the drivers who happen to be 'serious cyclists' look down on me with disdain as some homeless/DWI dude, since I am not dressed like them and lord forbid, not wearing a helmet!