John Forester

So what? That has nothing to do with our discussion, which concerns the relationship between cyclists and motorists.

However, the size, weight, and speed of motor vehicles has always been advanced by the "bike safety" people and others like them as dictating that cyclists must not operate in the vehicular manner. That's a fact of history. The answer to that argument is that the rules of the road are set up to avoid, among other things, collisions between these potentially deadly vehicles. Therefore, the rules of the road protect cyclists just as well.

Rando writes as if he has heard of the size, weight, and speed argument but has never understood its lack of relevance to vehicular cycling and the motives of those who have made it.

rando

I think it is relevant to get your reactions to this concept because it gives an idea of how delusional you two really are.

John Forester

You have had my reaction. Now please inform us of yours. Precisely, in what way do you violate the rules of the road because motor vehicles are heavier, larger, and faster than you on your bike?

sbhikes

BELITTLE to express a low opinion of. BELITTLE usually suggests a contemptuous or envious attitude

ridicule to make an object of laughter of. RIDICULE implies a deliberate often malicious belittling

malice desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another

disparagement, dispraise
the act of speaking contemptuously of

contempt, disdain, scorn, despite
lack of respect accompanied by a feeling of intense dislike; "he was held in contempt";

The man's "facts" carry quite a strong taint of emotion. Not too objective. I suppose if one repressed one's emotions with liberal applications of latinate words and the passive voice, some people won't notice said "facts" for the angry feelings they truly represent.

Helmet Head

It is difficult to get an accurate appraisal of someone in a forum like this. if you met Mr. Forester in person you'd see immediately that his driving emotion is not anger. If you can imagine Santa Claus dressed in lycra, that would be pretty close.

I-Like-To-Bike

Can't imagine it, but I can imagine him petting you on the head for your servile devotion.

zeytoun

If he's wearing lycra, I ain't sitting on his lap. I need something at least as thick as velvet.

John Forester

Me, angry at your foolish comments? Don't be so silly. In plain fact. so many of the views that you have expressed regarding bicycle transportation are foolish. It is necessary to identify them as such, less others be mislead. And do not think that I am selecting you for particularly biting treatment; a great many others have been making as foolish claims for decades. I am quite used to reading such.

BLIZZ

He isn't prejudiced.............he hates everyone! Well.............except for HH of coarse.

John Forester

Writing of me:

Again, don't be so silly. Or is this the demonstration that you can't be serious? It has been my point all along that there is good evidence for vehicular cycling, and no significant evidence for bikeways, or for any other method of operation on the roadway. If people like you were not in political power with respect to bicycle transportation, you would be laughingstock, but as it is, we vehicular cyclists have to deal with you. Exasperated we might be at your intransigence against facts and reason, but hate? Not quite, although you seem to be trying hard to get us to develop it.

chipcom 

True, he does seem a bit emotional and irrational at times, doesn't he? Maybe he just needs a hug.

I-Like-To-Bike

Just wait til HH says anything that casts doubt on anything from JF. Granted you might have to wait for snow balls in Hades, but if it happens, JF will turn on him like a snake.

LittleBigMan

I've been on your biting end a few times, ILTB.

deputyjones

Yeah, but ILTB is an equal opportunity biter ;D

LittleBigMan

Sure. Everybody here is.

I-Like-To-Bike

But some of us here are more equal than others. If I bite at you, you can bet you deserved it.

rando

pj7

No, I have never mentioned it on here before. I don't bring up everything that happens to me on my commute... unless it's funny or overly interesting.

There was no bike lane, as I've said before we have no bike lanes here and I have actually never been in a bike lane.
I was riding north bound on a residential street. This would have been in either late November or Early December as it was during the time of "no on-street parking parking" and was before the new year. (No parking is allowed on-street due to snow removal)
I was about 10 feet from the curb placing me just left of the right tire track. I was aproaching a yield sign and was slowing down. Mr. I-Have-A-Hummer-To-Make-Up-For-My-Small-Manhood aparantly felt unobliged to wait behind me so he crossed the center line to my left about 15 feet before the sign. Since there was no oposing traffic he proceded to turn right in front of me. He did not use a turn signal so I assumed he was going straight and just wanted to share the lane with me. I actually had to put my arm out in front of me (and sort of to the left) to brace myself against his SUV so as to not hit it with my bike.
A police officer was coming up right behind us, I saw him in my mirror but Mr. 'Small-Manhood seemed not to have. As soon as this happened he lit up and pulled up beside me. I had stopped right at the sign because I was about to fall down and yelled out his window "follow me" and proceded to turn right in front of me and go after the guy.
By the time I caught up to them the officer was already at the guys window and I heard him saying "yielding applies to all vehicles who have the right of way before you, not just coming from other directions". I had a **** eating grin on my face at hearing this and stopped behind the Hummer nad next to the police car.
The cop walked back to me, asked if me and my bike were alright and proceded to write a ticket for "failure to yield" to the motorist. After all was said and done the officer and I had a small chit chat talk. He sees my riding every day and just wanted to commend me on doing something that he thought he never could. He also said he might take up riding in the summer. I told him I commuted all winter long and his eyes got as big as saucers! Phrases such as "iron man" and "will power" were used to refer to me by him. Anyhow, we talked about other problems I have on my daily route and he asured me that the drivers here are overly agressive to everyone on the road and not just me. We exchanged pleasantries and went on our way.

Well, technically it is "me vs the cars" because in any sort of confrontation the two bodies involved are the human body of the cyclist and the steel body of the car.
But I see what you mean, and have never confused the issue.
Still, using my technical meaning it still holds true that one body is inferior to the other when it comes to an incident involving the two. But when referring to the person in control of the two bodies neither is superior nor inferior to one another... unless of course it's my mother in the car.

sbhikes

Awesome story, Iron Man PJ.

noisebeam

My riding is fully about the practical and safe. I find vehicular best describes what I find most practical and safe.
Al

pj7

I have already answered this question, just a few posts ago. But I revisit it here for another reason.
This post of yours is a perfect example of what I feel is condecending and talking down upon someone.
This question of yours looks an aweful lot like a fishing expedition of yours to dig something out of me to where you will be able to blame me for something. There is really no reason for you to know any further information about the incident when it pertains to the discussion we were having. You specifically are asking me about my placement, bike lanes, and the position of the motorist. Why? I said I was almost right hooked and that should have been enough to illustrate the point that was being made.
There really was no reason for you to have further information on this issue and it seems you only asked so that you could try and prove some point of yours. You never asked about the police officer, about any violations the motorist may have made, or anything else other than for information that would supply you with ammunition to fire off one of the theories you bring up on here quite frequently.
And now I feel as though I have been belittled by you for it.
If I am wrong, then please tell me why you requested this information and how it would have pertained to the discussion we were having at the time, and that discussion being how the public and government are accepting of vehicular cycling.

Helmet Head

You're not wrong. My question was a complete tangent from our discussion. Whenever I hear about any right hook, or dooring, or any kind of bike-car collision or near-miss, whether it's in person, email or on a forum, I ask for details. Nothing personal. In right hooks I'm particularly interested in learning about how the cyclist was positioned and whether he was aware and paying attention to the car and driver, whether the cyclist slowed as the car was slowing or whether he started to pass on the right, etc.

Helmet Head

Great story, pj. I love it when a cop happens to be there.

This sounds like the type of right hook that cannot be prevented, though it never hurts to be a little extra cautious any time someone starts passing you on the left right before a place where they can turn right, whether or not their signal is on.

pj7

And it is obvious when you are trying to do that. And that obviousness leads to animosity, the feeling of being belittled, and the outright accusation of you having a condecending "blame the cyclist" attitude.

BLIZZ was spot on in this statement and the discussions that followed show that it has not been taken to heart. That is why I have been avoiding my own thread for the last bit. And from reading through other posts by the VC zealot community (as small as it may be) no one has used the information that could be gathered from reading this thread. Some people just can't get over their own personal agenda (or themselves for that matter) and see the big picture.

pj7

And to avoid being obtuse or a little underhanded I'll make this statement.
I saw the officer before any of this happened. And I was fully aware that it *might* happen. I can not honestly say that I did not embellish the situation some. Now I'm not saying I purposely tried to run into the SUV, but knowing that the cop was behind me I may have subconciously tried to "teach this guy a lesson if he tries something stupid". Of course I never actually thought of doing it. I'm just saying that sometimes our emotions (and this thread is about emotions) cause us to do things that we would not knowingly do if we are in full thought about the situation.