Helmet Head

Yes, it's more clear, but it still seems to imply that there is some kind of connection between "bike lanes ended" ( interpreted to mean solid stripes becomes dashed) and "cars can legally enter the space."

Cars can legally enter the space up to 200 feet prior to the right turn, regardless of whether the stripe is solid or striped,

chipcom 

Yet you are the one who measures bike lane stripes, then says you ignore bike lane stripes, then can't recall bike lane stripes that you say don't exist anywhere that you know of when they are on your own alleged commute route. No, HH, you ain't getting off on the old inattentional blindness defense...you pwned yourself and proved once again your lack of honesty in these forums, further erroding your credibility.

FYI, I am known for catching details many others miss...probably comes from those lowly (to you) past professions of military and law enforcement. I'm the guy who says, "WTF let that gorilla loose in here?".

Helmet Head

Context, Pete, context. While I'm riding, I ignore the stripe. When I'm stopped with my bike leaning up against a post on the sidewalk and I'm looking at the stripes, I'm not ignoring them.

Yes, and using the term "measure" loosely. Like I said, I guesstimated.

I'm not playing this game. Read Hurst's book. He explains it very well.

chipcom 

He inattentively measured without ever seeing the lines.

noisebeam

Disclaimer: I have not read this thread, I just clicked on this page and saw references to dashed striped lanes and what it means.

In AZ a dashed bike lane stripe means a motor vehicle may cross the BL stripe. It does not mean the lane has ended, nor does it mean that a motor vehicle may travel in this BL designated by a dashed line.

If a bike lane has ended the stripe should end fully.

Al

chipcom 

So you can't pay attention to or recall minor details concerning your environment, yet you think you can tell others how to ride a bicycle in traffic, where paying attention to detail is a critical competency? I don't care if you commute or don't commute or what your religion is in regards to cycling. I do care about people giving advice on what is best and safest when they don't even have the core competencies themselves...and indeed don't even understand what core competencies are required.

Helmet Head

Can you cite the law for this? The law in CA is motorists can merge into the bike lane up 200' prior to the right turn, regardless of whether the stripe is solid or dashed.

chipcom 

So now it's sometimes you notice them and sometimes you don't? Make up your mind already...either you notice the pretty painted lines on the street or you don't. If you still claim you don't, I hope you at least learn to notice those cute solid yellow ones that might cause you to have a bad day if you cross over while dreamily riding along on autopilot.

Helmet Head

I do pay attention and can recall RELEVANT details in my environment, like whether my sightlines are blocked by a truck to the intersection up ahead. I normally do not pay attention nor can recall IRRELEVANT details in my environment, like the make/model/color of the truck is that is blocking my sight lines, or whether a bike lane stripe is solid or dashed.

Helmet Head

In EACH place that I measured, I only measured one dash and one gap (not all the dashes and all the gaps). Stop playing stupid sophistic games. I'm done.

zeytoun

I question whether either of you are interested in enhancing communication, or muddying it.

chipcom 

So exactly how do you determine what is and is not relevant if you don't notice things in your environment? Osmosis? ESP? Vulcan Mind-Meld with a chipmunk?

This whole thing leads back to your wacky theories concerning what motorists notice and don't notice and your claims that unless you are in front of them, they don't notice you. These are all based on YOUR INATTENTIVENESS and assuming that everyone else is as helpless as you are, rather than on anything factual. You cling to your gorilla in a basketball game theory because it's all you got to justify your own shortcomings and apply them to the rest of the world.

noisebeam

AZ law prohibts use of bike lane by motor vehicle except for crossing. A dashed stripe creates the presence of a bike lane. I only see dashed placed where a motor vehicle may cross the lane (such as BL to the left of RTOLs or for the last 10' before a turn, where a motor vehicle would clip the lane otherwise unless making a true 90deg turn.

The law:
https://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatD...28&DocType=ARS

"28-815. Riding on roadway and bicycle path; bicycle path usage

A. A person riding a bicycle on a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except under any of the following situations:

1. If overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.

2. If preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

3. If reasonably necessary to avoid conditions, including fixed or moving objects, parked or moving vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals or surface hazards.

4. If the lane in which the person is operating the bicycle is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

B. Persons riding bicycles on a roadway shall not ride more than two abreast except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles.

C. A path or lane that is designated as a bicycle path or lane by state or local authorities is for the exclusive use of bicycles even though other uses are permitted pursuant to subsection D or are otherwise permitted by state or local authorities.

D. A person shall not operate, stop, park or leave standing a vehicle in a path or lane designated as a bicycle path or lane by a state or local authority except in the case of emergency or for crossing the path or lane to gain access to a public or private road or driveway.

E. Subsection D does not prohibit the use of the path or lane by the appropriate local authority. "

randya

If I were a real doctor, I think I would diagnose HH with 'Cyclist Inferiority Syndrome'....

chipcom 

Again, if you don't pay attention to everything - especially things out of the ordinary, in your environment, how do you determine what is relevant and not relevant? Crystal Ball? Talk to God? Talk to Satan? The voices? How can you decide if it is relevant if you don't notice it?

joejack951

Why would you say that? All I did was add statements inside of the sentence giving reasons for why each of the points was made in an attempt to clarify why you made each point and to show that none were directly related to another. Simply adding numbers wouldn't necessarily communicate that to someone.

joejack951

Because the pink flamingo isn't going to jump out into the road in front of me. Is that a good enough reason?

joejack951

Maybe because he read on the internet that bike lane stripes are to be dashed 100-200 feet before an intersection.

randya

Come on Chip, give him a break, we all know that it was the good book EC what told Serge that the bike lane line is irrelevant. Don't persecute him, what are you trying to do, crucify him in the name of Foresterology?

zeytoun

Did you, like Helmet Head, believe that I was asserting that the beginnning of the dashed line determined where cars can enter the space?

Why would I put a comma in between each clause?

Wouldn't believing that the dashed line is what determines whether a car can enter the space, mean that I would think that cars are not legally allowed to cross the bike lane when it is solid, like at the many driveways I ride past in San Diego?

By the way, the 3 items are related. The 3 conditions are all required to be present at an intersection where a right turn is allowed.

joejack951

It seems to me that you cannot see the difference between regularly riding and ignoring a bike lane stripe and once or twice paying enough attention to the stripe (possibly while walking along that road or driving in a car even) to notice that it seems as though it's dashed for less than 100-200 feet. If you cannot see that difference, there's no point in continuing to discuss this with you.

noisebeam

Here is what the AZ Driver's Licencse Manual says:
-white lines separate lanes of traffic moving in same direction. single line may also mark right edge of pavement
--broken: separates lane of traffic in same direction. may be crossed if safe with signal
--solid: separates lanes of traffic. one shouldn't cross except for emergency
--double: crossing prohibited

So this interpretation basically means dashing is only used to indicate where lane changes are most likely to happen. Double white line is only where it is prohibited.

Al

joejack951

I wasn't paying that much attention to that statement (we were discussing something somewhat unrelated - if the striped completely disappeared or not) as he did but after reading it, I could see how it might be confusing.

To seperate the points, like anyone with good punctuation skills would. The seperation by a comma says nothing about the context though.

Possibly. There's a lot of confusion in general regarding how to use the space demarcated by a bike lane while operating a motor vehicle. The way you wrote it was ambiguous and HH was mislead. It's been cleared up now so it's really no big deal, right?

Well, no they are not all required to be present. The stripe doesn't need to be dashed to allow a right turn (you just admitted that yourself) nor does it need to be dashed to allow a motor vehicle to enter the bike lane 200 feet before their turn (again, something you've stated yourself). The available right turn is what needs to be present to allow the cyclist to leave the bike lane and the motorist to enter the bike lane. The dashing of the stripe is a suggested guideline for treatment of intersections.

[edit] Before we start another debate, maybe I'm misinterpretting what you meant by "The 3 conditions are all required to be present at an intersection where a right turn is allowed." Those three conditions are:

1. they are dashed
2. the mandatory bike lane law is now void
3. cars can legally enter the space

My interpretation of "what is required to be present at an intersection where a right turn is allowed" is an allowable right turn. #2 and #3 follow from that but not necessarily #1. [edit]

randya

you forgot #4, legal for bikes to leave the space

joejack951

You are using too literal of an interpretation of what HH means when he says he "ignores bike lane stripes while riding." You are also going a bit overboard assuming that just because he didn't notice the dashed length of some stripes that he is incapable of noticing the dashed length of others. Have some faith in what's being written, especially when it's so trivial. It would do a lot for your character (since what you write here is all that I know about you other than a few visits to your website).