larryfeltonj

This is an absurd mis-statement. I'm white, and I'm as likely to see African Americans or Mexicans as whites on any given trip out. I can only assume that you've either never spent a lot of time in Atlanta, or that if you did, you confined your travels to a very constricted area. The city I live in is majority African American, with a large white minority, about 7% Mexican [Edit: I noticed I used "Mexican" instead of Latino here. I'm going to leave it as is, because immigration from Mexico of late is much heavier than other Latin American countries, and the 7% figure is probably a large understatement given the high visibility of Mexican immigrants here]
at the last census, but in actuality probably much larger at this point, with fairly large Indian and East Asian communities in pockets throughout the metro area. The neighborhood I live in has a slight African American majority, with whites the next largest group, and significant Mexican areas to the south and west (along McDonough Blvd and Boulevard southeast.

If you're going to make statements like this, at least do a quick check of the census records. You know I live in Atlanta.

larryfeltonj

Well, now that I've gotten the trolling in me out of my system over the week let's examine the assumptions here.

How seriously expensive is my equipment?

Here's a list of the bikes I actively have on the road:

2003 Raleigh Supercourse: a moderately priced road bike, just above entry level. It cost me about $900
new, about $1300 once I'd equipped it. It doesn't dazzle the roadies, but it's served me well over the past few years.

1987 Peugeot Iseran: picked it up at a thrift store for $35.00, on the sole basis that the frame was the right size. The Iseran was nothing better than an entry level bike when new, but this one had no discernable damage. So far I've probably put around $300.00 in it, and have been making it my all weather bike.

1969 Raleigh Twenty (folding bike) : A recent acquisition, I've been curious about the Twenties for years, and this one was in very good condition, all original parts. I paid around $250.00 for it counting shipping. It's served as a very fun little utility bike, although without a few modifications (a hub with lower gear range, rims that provide some braking power) I don't think I'd tour on it.

1970s Raleigh Shopper (non-folder): I got this at the same time as the Twenty, haven't checked the date on the hub. Non-folder but the same basic design as the Twenty. $145.00 including shipping.

In addition the above the bikes in my basement I'm not using at the moment include a monstrous old
steel frame Raleigh with top tube shifters, and a 1970s Bianchi road bike with a frame size too small for me.


Now you have a basis to critique my supposedly elite status with respect to equipment. Have at it.

sbhikes

Let me quote you:
I'll admit I don't know what an armadillo man looks like, but it sounds to me like the rest of your description is pretty homogenous.

I know that Atlanta is very diverse. It just sounds to me like you ride around either with your eyes shut or else in a very non-diverse part of Atlanta.

Take a closer look next time, maybe when you are driving to work, and see if most folks are riding some kind on non-eye-catching bike to some crappy job. I'll betcha they care a lot less than you do about what gear they are in and they probably left home with enough time to get where they are going without dripping sweat and grunting about what a great workout that was.

sbhikes

You have a lot of bikes and are obviously well-off enough to afford to store them all. Next time you see some guy wobbling along on a ratty kid's BMX bike that's too small for him, consider whether he borrowed his nephew's bike to get to where he's going. Next time you see some masher struggling with a bike that doesn't shift gears, consider your stable full of steeds, all shiny and perfect. Owning lots of shiny, purty bikes and shifting gears "properly" is probably the least of that guy's concerns.

dynodonn 

Just imagine if a motorist operated their vehicle in the manner as the bicyclist that larry decribes? What would the general public's reaction would be? I'm really sure that many average peds reaction to this type of sidewalk riding would not be one of approval. I also find no apparent PC crime in owning a fleet of shiny purty bikes for different riding purposes, also being able to afford a place to store them. Just calculate the cost to puchase and operate one older used clunker of a car, and then owning, maintaining, and storing several nice bicycles is relatively easy.

sbhikes

I have no problem with owning lots of bikes either. There are 7 in our garage.

I do have a problem with equating the shifting of gears, "appropriate cycling gear", cadence, "undulation", "non-roadworthy bike" or whatever other measurement that might be written about profusely in a bicycling magazine with "skilled" or "serious". As if the multitudes undulating and mashing their non-roadworthy bikes while wearing street clothes were somehow un-skilled and not serious about the business of getting to wherever they are going.

LittleBigMan

Let's get real about these cyclists that grab a bike too small to get to the store. Does anyone really think we should all pattern ourselves after them?

I want straight answers: who here would really ride a BMX to work? Are any of you serious?

No, let's not teach anyone else what we've learned. No, instead, so as not to make them uncomfortable, let's all trade our favorite, well-tweaked bikes that fit us to a "T" for cheap bikes that are too small for us, with our knees knocking us in the jaw. And let's trade our panniers for Kroger bags dangling from handlebars. While we're at it, let's trade our ideals, too, and adopt the mentality that says, "As soon as I can get some wheels, I won't have to put up with this stupid kid's bike."

And if anyone thinks I haven't dangled a Kroger bag from my handlebars, rode without a helmet, ridden on the sidewalk, run red lights and stop signs, stuffed my pants leg in to my sock, rode in $10 shoes (and 10-for-a-dollar-t-shirts,) wore cheap undies, tied my glasses on with rubber bands, used an empty coke bottle for a water bottle, eaten packaged honey and strawberry jam instead of "GU," or poisoned a store with BO, all within the last year and mostly within the last month, think again! And I'm just getting started!

In fact, I can't think of a single piece of cycling-specific clothing I own, outside my helmet. Not by choice, but by budget. But don't think for a minute I wouldn't want the best if I could!

No, let's pattern ourselves after those who could benefit the most by our example, and thereby lose the opportunity to elevate respect for cycling.

Bushman

^ i do (ride a bmx to work). Its got high pressure 20" slicks, a 52 x 14 driveline, big arse cruiser bars, a raised seat and is ugly enough i can get away with just one U lock to lock it. Its also my beater bike for the liqour store runs, i dont need to worry about the drunks outside trying to steal it.

larryfeltonj

If you make many more assumptions about me, my neighborhood, my lifestyle, my income, or even my attitude toward unskilled cyclists, you'll probably continue to make assumptions I'll feel compelled to correct. I won't dwell on those assumptions, but I will say my house is a 900 square foot 1925 Craftsman for which I paid $150,000. There isn't a whole lot of room, but then again I have a basement, and bicycles have a pretty narrow profile.

I care about other people's cycling skills for two reasons.

One is that I think cycling is a wonderful form of both transportation and recreation, and want those people to develop the cycling skills to be able to appreciate the joys of this marvelous activity.

The second is that I'm very protective of my rights as a first class citizen of the roadways, and the best way to ensure that cyclists are first class citizens is to insist that they act like it.

LittleBigMan

Cool.



But remember, you didn't "grab" that BMX, you chose it. Difference.

LittleBigMan

I feel the same way. I don't go out of my way to put anyone down. Trust me on this, I know the feeling of, "outcast." Who am I to judge?

But whenever I get the chance to inspire a cyclist face-to-face, I do my best. Really, I think all of us are that way.

I don't look at their bike with a sneer (it's probably better than any of mine, anyway )

But some people are actually looking for tips. When they look, I try to help. What's most important to me is not selling my ideology about cycling. That'll never stick. What I do do is perceive what keeps a cyclist interested, and bump that up.

But on these forums, we're all experienced, to some degree. Here, we take off the cute clothes and tell it like we see it. No prob.

Larry and I share a lot in common. Live with it.

larryfeltonj

Oh, and by the way, I think my bikes are very purty, and appreciate your nod to my deep roots in southern culture. If Faulkner or Flannery O'Connor were still with us, I'd email them and suggest that they incorporate the old southerner with his shiny road bikes into one of their novels or short stories.

larryfeltonj

Yikes!! Y'all have a garage? I've always dreamed of being affluent enough to have a house with a garage. I grew up in the Grant Park neighborhood of Atlanta. My father never made more than about 30% above minimum wage, so when I was about five years old we poured a narrow driveway adjacent to the house.

I've always lived in the urban sections of Atlanta, so every house I've lived in has either depended on onstreet parking, or has had a narrow driveway.

I-Like-To-Bike

I don't give a dang about your upbringing; I find objectionable your current pompous attitude and arrogance towards cyclists that don't meet YOUR standards for proper cycling. IMO, it is counterproductive to positive advocacy when so-called cycling advocates smugly boast about their Cycling Seriousness .

larryfeltonj

Darn, I-Like-Ike. I was sincerely hoping for a clean bill of health from you on the basis of my veritable Tom-Joad-like upbringing. Well, perhaps I'm being a little less than sincere. But you have to admit I am pretty good at being pompous.

I'm curious though, outside of this forum, what is the nature of your own advocacy.

rando

Larry from atlanta said: "...I think cycling is a wonderful form of both transportation and recreation, and want those people to develop the cycling skills to be able to appreciate the joys of this marvelous activity.

The second is that I'm very protective of my rights as a first class citizen of the roadways, and the best way to ensure that cyclists are first class citizens is to insist that they act like it."

translation:
I want eveyone to ride the way I ride, ride what I ride, and think the way I do. then everyone will be happier and have more joy and the world will be a better place.... for ME!


Larry sure has softened up his rhetoric when he found many of us weren't going to pat him on the back for his bigoted, insulting view of certain other cyclists.

larryfeltonj

Damn, and I thought I was working from my long established pattern (which I've used since the bitnet/usenet days) of readiing a forum for awhile to get an idea of the general tone of discussion, establishing my persona as quickly as possible so that people know what to expect, and then settling into more routine discussion.

I didn't realize I was looking for a pat on the back. I believe it was you who told me I was going to get "flack". When is it going to start? So far everyone's been very nice to me here, albeit I haven't received the pats on the back I evidently crave.

rando

struck a nerve, eh? hey, man, you showed your stripes from that very first post. bigoted, insulting, derisive of other riders and "inferior" bikes. a desire to have everyone ride what you ride and believe what you believe and ride the way you ride. yes, you'll find plenty of your buddies here.

larryfeltonj

rando, I guess without peppering my posts with emoticons my general attitude isn't really clear. I have very few nerves left to strike which aren't already numb from what I view as my interesting and fast moving life. You can make sophmoric comments, edit them out, reintroduce them in a different form, and comment on my alleged bigotry to your heart's content. It really doesn't bother me. I'm far too pompous and self-satisfied to care.

And while I have about the same desire to be liked as anyone else, acquiring "buddies" isn't my motivation for being here. I have a number of buddies locally.

Now to address the content of your post, yes, I advocate for my view of the world with respect to cycling, and in a number of other areas. But I don't want everyone to necessarily ride what I ride.

LittleBigMan

I-Like-To-Bike,

I know you can go there. Really.

Won't you offer a little more from your cycling experience than the same-o-same-o? You must have a lot more to talk about than antibiotics for Foresteritis.

rando

Man, I sounded like a total jerk in my post above. I apologize. getting all worked up over nothing.

LittleBigMan

relax, man.

You're input is welcome, especially when you're angry.



What would life be without contradictions? Vanilla-paste.

(We're all guilty... )

Spike3905

I'm a newbie here. So I may be missing some larger point you're making about "efficiency" that isn't yet obvious to me. But it seems to me that the choice of a cycling route simply reflects the desires and purposes of an individual cyclist when traversing a particular piece of landscape. Sometimes I decide to take the long way home because I want to get a few more miles in and experience a beautiful part of the landscape. If I were to maintain a mindless focus on efficiency, I'd be doing less riding and experiencing less joy.

Assuming that your purpose isn't simply to demonstrate a superior attitude by looking down your nose at others, please help me understand why this point is worthy of discussion.

RobertHurst

I don't know Larry. Seems to me the most direct path (for a bicyclist) would almost always involve some sidewalk riding, wrong-way riding, or other creative use of available surfaces. And the quickest, most 'efficient' mode of travel to your destination is very likely to put one in conflict with the traffic law. If you're talking about the most direct, efficient route that is also completely lawful and VC, that would be something else entirely.

Robert

larryfeltonj

If you'll read read the first line of the initial post you've excerpted carefully you'll discover that my entire purpose in starting this thread was in response to a vapid and pointless straw man thread which was active at the time I posted.

Route choice has little to do with vehicular cycling except insomuch as knowledge of techniques for cycling in traffic expands one's route choices.