Allister

If you're looking where you're going instead of obsessing over what's going on behind you, there's no need to adjust suddenly, because you'll see any obstructions well in advance.

Helmet Head

+1

Yes, Gene, you have done an excellent job.

But perhaps we should leave the whackjob in his Fantasyland where he can bask in his ever-growing delusions?

Helmet Head

Like the previously undetected dog or ball that suddenly shoots into the road from the side?

And if you're looking where you're going 100% of the time with 100% coverage, you're inhuman. Every now and then, we all miss something until the point where all we can do is suddenly veer around it. Even you, Superman.

And even though all this might happen relatively rarely for you and me, it happens all too often for other cyclists. Have you ever considered encouraging motorists to pass cyclists with a safe clearance might help a cyclist less skilled than you avoid a crash some time in the future? Consider that one third of the respondents to this poll have experienced crashes with close-passers (also note that I'm not one of them).

Whatever, I think we mostly agree and you're just being a grouch.

Allister

I prefer to apply the brake rather than suddenly swerve into traffic.

I'm not so arrogant that I think I can speak with any authority about 'other cyclists'.

I never said that encouraging safe passing isn't worthwhile. For a start, it's a legal requirement of all road users to pass safely, and if I don't think drivers are going to do it, I claim enough of the lane to force them to change lanes to pass me, and if I am claiming a lane, I hold my line. This only applies to lanes too narrow to share.

Where I disagree with you is where it's necessary to claim the lane. Take that example in the other thread with the 50' shoulder. There is absolutely no need whatsoever to ride in the lane there to 'encourage safe passing'. With that much road width, there is ample room for safe passing. Your insistence that it's 'pragmatic' to ride so that the one in a zillion driver that can't stay in the lane will be more aware of you is indicative of exactly the same fear of passing traffic that motivates kerb-hugging. You are severely over-estimating the risk. That's not pragmatism by any definition of the word.

Apart from anything else, you can just as easily monitor following traffic from the shoulder, and on a shoulder that wide, you've still got plenty of room to avoid them even if they do drift across the line.

But hey, you ride however you want. It's no skin off my nose. But if you advise people that don't know any better to follow your style, don't be surprised when other members speak up.

Also note that not a single one was due to a sudden swerve by the cyclist due to a tyre blowing out, nor, going by the descriptions in the thread, was it due to a sudden swerve for any reason. Again, you're making much ado about nothing.

Besides, if you think that any poll conducted on this forum has any statistical significance whatsoever, you're a bigger fool than I thought.

LittleBigMan

How humble of you.

LittleBigMan

My true reaction, and bias, to your posts is astonishment at your immaturity.

We all have fun here, and also have our fist-fights.

But you're just plain nasty.

joejack951

Why is it that when discussing using a default centerish lane position that members of this forum can't seem to remember all of the reasons for doing so? Instead, they latch on to one aspect of it and then proceed to dismiss the technique because they feel the one aspect they remembered is not worth all of the effort.

Allister

What other reasons? There's no reason at all to choose the lane over a 50' wide shoulder.

joejack951

There are plenty of other reasons that have been outlined countless times. I can retype them if you'd like though. Some may not seem to apply with a 50 foot shoulder but tell me how many roads you've cycled on with a 50' shoulder? I don't think one extreme example is a very good basis for an argument.

songfta

Location: Seven Locks Road, Cabin John, MD, just south of where said road crosses under I-495 (Capitol Beltway). I was traveling north, as was the motorist.
Type of location: suburban road
Lane locations: 2-way road, each lane being 11 feet in width (average)
Approximate speeds: I was going 28 mph, motorist was going at least 45 mph (posted speed limit was 35)
Did I swerve left: No - I was about 18 inches from the curb, riding a predictably straight line.

billew

I've tried this link thing with no luck hope it works now. This is from a local weekly.https://www.newportmercury.com/pov/ This kid is too much. I've been hit a few times usually a mirror.although i was hit by a boat once (on a trailer) but I was on skates at the time.

Allister

Well, no, but using it as an example does highlight the absurdity of riding 'default centreish' when there is no compelling reason to do so.

Helmet Head

There's no reason at all to choose the shoulder when faster same direction traffic is not present, and the only reason to choose the shoulder when fsdt is present is to make it easier for them to pass.

But there are reasons to choose the lane over a shoulder, even a 50' wide shoulder, that have very little or nothing to do with faster same direction traffic.

In general, it mostly has to do with the best protection against mishap (coming from any direction) being vigilance, maintaining good situational awareness, and habitually following best practices.

More specifically, riding centerish whenever fsdt is not present is a best practice I choose to follow habitually because:

1. it improves sight lines between me and potential hazards in front of me; I am able to see them sooner and they are more likely to see me sooner.
2. it makes me more conspicuous to motorists in front of me (as well as those approaching from behind), and "engages" me more with traffic: it helps me maintain good vigilance and situational awareness.
3. The pavement in the traffic lane is almost always significantly cleaner and in better condition than the pavement in the shoulder.

Conversely, habitually riding in road margins tends to make you less conspicuous, more likely to be overlooked (from behind as well as and more importantly in front of you), less "engaged" with traffic and puts you on pavement that is much more likely to be littered in debris.

But the main reason is that a more centerish position improves sight lines to and from you with respect to potential conflicts in front of you, which is particularly important during periods of no faster same direction traffic such as depicted in the photo in the OP. If there is a blind driveway to the right coming up, then you will see it sooner the further left you are riding out in the lane. And if there is an intersection coming up that you didn't notice yet, someone about to pull out of it is much more likely to notice you if you are out in the lane rather than in the shoulder. If you are habitually riding in the lane by default, then oncoming traffic that may potentially suddenly slow down to make a left turn into a driveway that you perhaps didn't even notice, or wouldn't have had you been riding in the shoulder, is more likely to notice you sooner, leaving you less likely to fall victim to a left cross. If there is a hazard in the shoulder, there is no need for you to merge left, because you're already there. And you are less likely encounter obstacles and debris out in the road because they tend to collect in the shoulder or bike lanes.

But I've pointed all this out to you before, and you continue to act as if you've never seen it.

Helmet Head

You see, your words imply that one should not be riding 'default centreish' when there is no compelling reason to do so; that one should identify a reason to be centerish before moving there from the margin. And that's the problem, because from the margin your sight lines are shortened or blocked so that sometimes you can't identify the reason to be centerish because you're not centerish. And once you do identify the compelling reason, if it's not already too late, there are all the delays involved in terms of reacting to the already delayed recognition, making sure it's safe to merge, and finally merging. This is also where the likelihood of being "less engaged" when riding in the margin comes into play, which also adds to the delay.

Waiting for a compelling reason to ride centerish is like waiting for a compelling reason to put on your seatbelt or helmet. By the time you identify the compelling reason and act on it, it may be too late.

Allister

No, I just don't think there's anything you've described there that can't be covered by the principle of 'riding as far right as practicable', which has the added bonus of being legal.

Helmet Head

Riding 18 inches from the curb in a lane that is too narrow to be safely shared invites motorists to try to squeeze in and share the lane with you despite it being too narrow to share.

Remember, between you and just about any motorist you encounter, you are the expert on bike/car interactions, not the driver. If you act in a way consistent with believing that the lane is wide enough to be shared (which is what riding 18 inches from the curb is), don't be surprised when ignorant motorists try to share it. You need to be clear with them when the lane is too narrow - move left to a centerish position. Make it clear in no uncertain terms that in order to pass you, they must move at least partially into the adjacent lane, and, if that's not possible at the moment, then they must slow down to your speed. This is much easier to do if you get a mirror and get good with it, especially in terms of reading motorists as they approach from behind, and knowing if you need to do anything to communicate this to them.

Helmet Head

First, in almost every legal manifestation of that principle that I've seen, it only applies when faster same direction traffic is present. No one is advocating riding centerish when fsdt is present and it is safe and reasonable (practicable) to move aside.

Second, it may seem practicable to be as far right as the margin, especially if you are accustomed to riding there, but only because of the reduced/blocked sight lines due to riding in the margin.

From your posts I take it you have not read John Franklin's little book, Cyclecraft. Highly recommended. That is the genesis for the centerish default riding position concept.

Allister

Don't be daft. Sightlines are designed for the speed of motor vehicles using the road. The only time sightlines are dangerously shortened is when you're travelling at or above the speed limit (or the suggested signposted speed for a particular corner). In those cases, yes I ride centre of the lane, and I don't let anyone pass me.

LOL. You really are a nervous nelly. You don't get any more surprises riding as far right as practicable (riding in the 'margins', whatever that means, is your term, not mine) than you do riding in the centre, unless you're not paying attention to where you're going, which is possible I guess if you're looking in your mirror all the time for people that might run over you.

The only compelling reason I have experienced for riding in the centre of the lane is if you're riding at the speed limit, or at the ambient speed of traffic, whichever is slower. In heavy traffic where I'm matching speed with it, the only reason I'll ride centre is if I think it'll slow down and I may have to move into the next lane to pass. On country roads, I'll take the 'racing line' over the whole lane on fast decents, and anyone behind me can wait (if they can keep up at all - a bike can corner a lot faster than a car). None of that comes up on you so suddenly that there's no time to react. Otherwise I'll be hovering around the fog line, or in the outer tyre track if it's narrow, and I certainly never change my line for passing vehicles, it is up to them to pass safely. Your assuption that they won't unless you can see for certain that they are is irrational, not pragmatic.

Helmet Head

When you're done with Franklin's book, you should check out Hurst's Urban Cycling. He describes an incident of riding along in the margin (bike lane), getting momentarily distracted by a pretty girl, and crashing into a Mercedes that suddenly pulled out of a blind alley.

Whatever, if you think the sight lines to and from you are good enough when riding in the margins, and your conspicuity is good enough, go for it. In most cases most of the time, you'll be right.

Allister

Bulldust. Show me one that mentions anything about other traffic.

I'm most familiar with Queensland, so lets use that as an example.

"129 Keeping to the far left side of a road
(1) A driver on a road (except a multi-lane road or a road with 2 or more
lines of traffic travelling in the same direction as the driver) must drive as
near as practicable to the far left side of the road.
Maximum penalty—20 penalty units.
(2) This section does not apply to the rider of a motorbike."

Note that it a) doesn't specifically mention bicycles - it applies to all road users, and b) it makes no mention of what other vehicles are doing.

Also worth noting;

"247 Riding in a bicycle lane on a road
(1) The rider of a bicycle riding on a length of road with a bicycle lane
designed for bicycles travelling in the same direction as the rider must ride
in the bicycle lane unless it is impracticable to do so.
Maximum penalty—20 penalty units." (my emphasis)

Again, no mention of passing traffic.

Allister

LOL, well no-one's perfect.

I won't say I don't look at pretty girls, but moments of inattention like that can be hazardous wherever you're riding, and it's hardly relevant to the discussion at hand.



I think I can sum up my lane positioning philosophy most simply as 'As far left as practicable, but far enough right to be safe' (opposite for US). Based on that, I've found riding in the centre of the lane is rarely necessary, and it does not mean I habitually ride in the margins.

Helmet Head

You're right, the pretty girl part is not relevant. Not sure why you focused on that aspect of it. Riding so far right (in the bike lane) so that he couldn't see the blind alley is what is relevant here. But because he couldn't see the blind alley because he was so far right, he couldn't see that it was a potential hazard and he should be further left. Not to mention that he forgot it was there, despite this being a regularly route for him. My point is if riding centerish was his default habit, then he wouldn't have to rely on seeing the blind alley, or remembering it is there, to ride far enough left to be reasonable safe.

Hey, that's exactly my lane positioning philosophy, except it does apply in the U.S. for me, as is.

Helmet Head

I've never looked at the Queensland laws. Sorry, but this is U.S. centric.


Operation on Roadway

21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:

(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.

(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.

https://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21202.htm

Note that if there is no "other traffic moving in the same direction at that time", then the cyclist cannot be "moving at a speed less than" it, and the restriction does not apply. It only applies if same direction traffic is moving faster than the cyclist; the traffic has to be present for that to be true.

Allister

With no traffic present, I'd interpret that as 'travelling less than the speed limit', which is the speed one would assume the traffic would be travelling at if it was present, and pragmatically speaking, eventually other traffic is pretty much inevitable. But I agree you could interpret it your way, I just don't see much benefit in constantly moving in and out of the lane to allow traffic to pass. I much prefer, and I consider it safer, holding a steady, predictable line.

pj7

I don't dispute this one bit as it happened to me many many times back when I was uncomfortable with riding further out into the lane. But what about the motorists that do drift across the double yellow to pass you but still pass too close when you are riding closely to the curb? If they were willing to cross the line in the first place, and yet still pass you close enough to squeeze you, then I don't see how being further to the left would make them give you more room in the first place.
The reason I bring this up is because it has happened to me plenty of times before, and still continues to happen to me from time to time even when there is a 30" shoulder and I am riding to the left of the fog line by more than 20" sometimes.
Sometimes, there are motorists who think it is their duty to teach us "ignorant" cyclists a lesson, even if it kills us to learn it.