majority of riding is in violation of VC principles- what to do?
#51
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Boy, there's rude and off topic.
you've got nothing about thru traffic being routed to the right of potential turning traffic while riding VC, wheel?
you've got nothing about thru traffic being routed to the right of potential turning traffic while riding VC, wheel?
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Brian
#53
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I can't explain the discrepancy either. I make course corrections all the time so that I won't hit somebody or something, or so they won't hit me. But I consider that a normal part of riding, not an "incident." One thing that bugs me is when cars pass me just before a stop sign or red light. That happens pretty often--maybe every time I ride on small streets. It pisses me off, but I don't consider it an incident.
Sure, we can work to avoid such instances and then just ignore them... but the whole roadway environment is based on co-operation... not artful dodging, or fanciful expressions or anything else subjective.
#54
Sophomoric Member
The reason it pisses you off is because these guys are violating your ROW... and this is counter to the VC principals that Forester et. al. preach. The key to the VC theories they espouse is that motorists are supposed to be rule abiding and predictable... and when motorists violate the rules, then you are at risk, and motorists often violate the rules and there are many more motorists on the road than cyclists, so yeah chances are indeed that others are violating your VC behavior in spite of your efforts.
Sure, we can work to avoid such instances and then just ignore them... but the whole roadway environment is based on co-operation... not artful dodging, or fanciful expressions or anything else subjective.
Sure, we can work to avoid such instances and then just ignore them... but the whole roadway environment is based on co-operation... not artful dodging, or fanciful expressions or anything else subjective.
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#55
Sophomoric Member
lol most amusing post of the thread. First there's the pot-kettle rudeness charge. Then there's the mental image of traffic cops in white gloves directing cyclists to ride to the right of potential turning traffic. What do you mean by traffic being "routed" to the right? Who is routing cyclists to their deaths in Seattle? How do they do this and why? Can they not be stopped?
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#56
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I'm proud to have spent less time in this elementary-school playground than you.
You mean all those hours yesterday that he was twitching his mouse, he was trying to twitch his handlebars at the same time? No wonder he has so many close calls per mile.
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You, like Bekologist, need to study your opponents more. Simply reading the rest of the sentence in my profile that you bothered to start reading but were apparently too lazy to finish reading, and then coupling it with the application of a little brain energy, would have enabled you to figure out that in the case of the particular one of the Susquehanna County cycling organizations to which you refer (not to be confused with two other, much-higher-membership ones in which I also hold high positions), "their" standards indeed aren't high enough to have chosen me; I'm self-appointed!
Captain of the Susquehanna County Wheelmen, a think tank devoted to the principle that a bicycle is a vehicle and that therefore a bicyclist has the same rights and duties as any other vehicle operator and that there are no exceptions.
You'll need to point out to those of us without ESP exactly where it states that you were self appointed. And I guess by virtue of your own use of the word "opponent" there can be no question that you're merely here to troll.
If you're not able to abide by the forum guidelines, do not participate.
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It's true, I figure about once per eight hours of riding I come across someone who fails to register my existence even though I am right in front of their face and riding in the middle of the street; and there would be some kind of collision if I didn't see it coming first. I don't count the times that people fail to see me when I am riding in stealth messenger mode or on the sidewalk or breaking the law in any way. (I almost never have to deal with a right hooker, maybe once or twice per year.)
Many of those road users who fail to notice me however, are jaywalking pedestrians. And many others are drivers diving in and out of side parking. So if you're riding in an area that is primarily suburban or exurban, and doesn't have lots of wayward pedestrians or side parking, or some kind of intersection every 100 feet, then a rider could go quite a while before having to deal with one of these incidents, and will have quite a different view about cycling in traffic. Could that explain the discrepancy?
Happy new year one and all.
Robert
Many of those road users who fail to notice me however, are jaywalking pedestrians. And many others are drivers diving in and out of side parking. So if you're riding in an area that is primarily suburban or exurban, and doesn't have lots of wayward pedestrians or side parking, or some kind of intersection every 100 feet, then a rider could go quite a while before having to deal with one of these incidents, and will have quite a different view about cycling in traffic. Could that explain the discrepancy?
Happy new year one and all.
Robert
Last edited by RobertHurst; 01-01-08 at 01:55 PM.
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Seems like as good an explanation as any I've heard, Robert. Happy New Year to you, too.
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"Real wars of words are harder to win. They require thought, insight, precision, articulation, knowledge, and experience. They require the humility to admit when you are wrong. They recognize that the dialectic is not about making us look at you, but about us all looking together for the truth."
"Real wars of words are harder to win. They require thought, insight, precision, articulation, knowledge, and experience. They require the humility to admit when you are wrong. They recognize that the dialectic is not about making us look at you, but about us all looking together for the truth."
#60
Sophomoric Member
It's true, I figure about once per eight hours of riding I come across someone who fails to register my existence even though I am right in front of their face and riding in the middle of the street; and there would be some kind of collision if I didn't see it coming first. I don't count the times that people fail to see me when I am riding in stealth messenger mode or on the sidewalk or breaking the law in any way. (I almost never have to deal with a right hooker, maybe once or twice per year.)
Many of those road users who fail to notice me however, are jaywalking pedestrians. And many others are drivers diving in and out of side parking. So if you're riding in an area that is primarily suburban or exurban, and doesn't have lots of wayward pedestrians or side parking, or some kind of intersection every 100 feet, then a rider could go quite a while before having to deal with one of these incidents, and will have quite a different view about cycling in traffic. Could that explain the discrepancy?
Happy new year one and all.
Robert
Many of those road users who fail to notice me however, are jaywalking pedestrians. And many others are drivers diving in and out of side parking. So if you're riding in an area that is primarily suburban or exurban, and doesn't have lots of wayward pedestrians or side parking, or some kind of intersection every 100 feet, then a rider could go quite a while before having to deal with one of these incidents, and will have quite a different view about cycling in traffic. Could that explain the discrepancy?
Happy new year one and all.
Robert
It seemed that Bekologist was saying you almost get creamed by a right hook every eight hours. I was thinking that if this happens to one of America's 2 great safety experts, it's a miracle that the rest of us can even make it around the block in one piece.
Thanks for taking the time to clear this up. And Happy New Year to you also.
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#61
totally louche
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I wasn't inferring that in any way, roody.
Happy new year one and all. who's gotten a good ride in today? I put down only about 45 miles.
Happy new year one and all. who's gotten a good ride in today? I put down only about 45 miles.
#63
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You, like Bekologist, need to study your opponents more. Simply reading the rest of the sentence in my profile that you bothered to start reading but were apparently too lazy to finish reading, and then coupling it with the application of a little brain energy, would have enabled you to figure out that in the case of the particular one of the Susquehanna County cycling organizations to which you refer (not to be confused with two other, much-higher-membership ones in which I also hold high positions), "their" standards indeed aren't high enough to have chosen me; I'm self-appointed!
I'm proud to have spent less time in this elementary-school playground than you.
You mean all those hours yesterday that he was twitching his mouse, he was trying to twitch his handlebars at the same time? No wonder he has so many close calls per mile.
I'm proud to have spent less time in this elementary-school playground than you.
You mean all those hours yesterday that he was twitching his mouse, he was trying to twitch his handlebars at the same time? No wonder he has so many close calls per mile.
Full text:
Captain of the Susquehanna County Wheelmen, a think tank devoted to the principle that a bicycle is a vehicle and that therefore a bicyclist has the same rights and duties as any other vehicle operator and that there are no exceptions.
You'll need to point out to those of us without ESP exactly where it states that you were self appointed. And I guess by virtue of your own use of the word "opponent" there can be no question that you're merely here to troll.
You've made no meaningful contribution to this site, so I would like to thank you for at least limiting your time here.
Perhaps you're too busy being the captain of your one man think tank to have a job, but I'm quite certain that most other posters on here do. Some of us even have computers at work. It's not like we're all paper boys.
If you're not able to abide by the forum guidelines, do not participate.
Captain of the Susquehanna County Wheelmen, a think tank devoted to the principle that a bicycle is a vehicle and that therefore a bicyclist has the same rights and duties as any other vehicle operator and that there are no exceptions.
You'll need to point out to those of us without ESP exactly where it states that you were self appointed. And I guess by virtue of your own use of the word "opponent" there can be no question that you're merely here to troll.
You've made no meaningful contribution to this site, so I would like to thank you for at least limiting your time here.
Perhaps you're too busy being the captain of your one man think tank to have a job, but I'm quite certain that most other posters on here do. Some of us even have computers at work. It's not like we're all paper boys.
If you're not able to abide by the forum guidelines, do not participate.
#64
Part-time epistemologist
Started the New Year with a century. 102.5 miles
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A narrative on bicycle driving.
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#65
Sophomoric Member
I'm visiting my dad in Traverse City, where I don't have a ridable bike. My exercise tonight will be shoveling snow, and maybe a walk to see the Christmas lights for the last time. Tomorrow night I'll be back in Lansing and back in the saddle.
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#66
Tom Frost Jr.
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Perhaps you're too busy being the captain of your one man think tank to have a job, but I'm quite certain that most other posters on here do. Some of us even have computers at work. It's not like we're all paper boys.
If you're not able to abide by the forum guidelines, do not participate.
If you're not able to abide by the forum guidelines, do not participate.
Have a nice life.
#68
Sophomoric Member
#69
Sophomoric Member
Well.
An interesting way to go. I'll always remember him as the best damn captain of the think tank we ever had.
An interesting way to go. I'll always remember him as the best damn captain of the think tank we ever had.
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#71
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I ride in mostly inner city areas, not suburbs, so that doesn't explain the discrepancy. What does explain it is that I wasn't thinking about pedestrians or about low speed examples of clueless driving. If I include them, I won't dispute the eight hour estimate. What I had been thinking about in the context of this thread was mainly right hooks. (and hookers--I've hit them a couple times )
It seemed that Bekologist was saying you almost get creamed by a right hook every eight hours. I was thinking that if this happens to one of America's 2 great safety experts, it's a miracle that the rest of us can even make it around the block in one piece.
Thanks for taking the time to clear this up. And Happy New Year to you also.
It seemed that Bekologist was saying you almost get creamed by a right hook every eight hours. I was thinking that if this happens to one of America's 2 great safety experts, it's a miracle that the rest of us can even make it around the block in one piece.
Thanks for taking the time to clear this up. And Happy New Year to you also.
I suspect that there are actually quite a bit more drivers and peds who fail to notice me (and you, I suspect) than my 2-4 incidents per week average would indicate, but if I'm riding the right way with the proper awareness their non-noticing doesn't register because I have already assumed a fetid combo of blindness and carelessness in these anonymous faceless strangers and acted in a way to neutralize their potential to cause a collision, so whether they have seen me or not doesn't matter, and I don't care either way. Unfortunately, as you know as an urban rider, we can't launch a 100%-effective preemptive awareness strike on every other road user we encounter -- we are still going to be dependent on the awareness of others to some degree.
The last time I had a close call with a right hook was about six months ago. This little car pulled wide around me and carved a ridiculous squealing turn in front of me while I was riding about 20-25 mph. I avoided the back end by maybe a foot. I felt this had to be deliberate and in such situations I tend to want to contact the driver and express my sincere regrets, so to speak, especially if they are, as this driver was, caught at a light just a block away. When I rolled up to the car there was a lady behind the wheel with a completely dazed look on her face, staring straight ahead, mouth agape, and holding a giant ice bag up to the side of her head. Looks like she just got out of highly invasive oral surgery, perhaps. It's a crazy, mixed-up, pharmaceutical-ized world out there.
I think the reason I rarely have a problem with a right hook is that they are mostly easily mitigated with simple adjustments in position or speed if you're aware of the potential for a problem. I personally consider the right hook to be low-hanging fruit among cyclists' problems.
Of course, when it comes to right-turning trucks that can literally run over a cyclist or pedestrian that the driver might not be able to see, right hooks have been deadly problems, especially in England (where they are left hooks) and notably and sadly this year, Portland OR. The length of the truck is probably more of a factor in these incidents than the height of the cab, as a truck driver must set up for a right turn from much farther left than the driver of a car because the truck's rear wheels track so far inside the front wheels. If they don't set up for the turn correctly, the rear wheels will literally track over the sidewalk and take out newspaper boxes and light poles. Often I see right-turning trucks waiting to turn and they are entirely outside the turn lane. This can easily fool one into thinking the driver means to go straight, and if there is room to filter up beside, even a very experienced rider might have a small lapse of judgment and filter up beside their last truck.
Robert
#72
Part-time epistemologist
You got one part right - I'm _not_ able to abide by the forum guidelines when responding to _you_. Therefore, I just waded through the control panel in search of the "permanantly remove self from site" button, but I failed to find it. You no doubt have access to it, so please use it on me immediately.
Have a nice life.
Have a nice life.
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A narrative on bicycle driving.
A narrative on bicycle driving.
#73
Part-time epistemologist
I think the reason I rarely have a problem with a right hook is that they are mostly easily mitigated with simple adjustments in position or speed if you're aware of the potential for a problem. I personally consider the right hook to be low-hanging fruit among cyclists' problems.
Of course, when it comes to right-turning trucks that can literally run over a cyclist or pedestrian that the driver might not be able to see, right hooks have been deadly problems, especially in England (where they are left hooks) and notably and sadly this year, Portland OR. The length of the truck is probably more of a factor in these incidents than the height of the cab, as a truck driver must set up for a right turn from much farther left than the driver of a car because the truck's rear wheels track so far inside the front wheels. If they don't set up for the turn correctly, the rear wheels will literally track over the sidewalk and take out newspaper boxes and light poles. Often I see right-turning trucks waiting to turn and they are entirely outside the turn lane. This can easily fool one into thinking the driver means to go straight, and if there is room to filter up beside, even a very experienced rider might have a small lapse of judgment and filter up beside their last truck.
Robert
Robert
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A narrative on bicycle driving.
A narrative on bicycle driving.
#74
Sophomoric Member
[....]
I suspect that there are actually quite a bit more drivers and peds who fail to notice me (and you, I suspect) than my 2-4 incidents per week average would indicate, but if I'm riding the right way with the proper awareness their non-noticing doesn't register because I have already assumed a fetid combo of blindness and carelessness in these anonymous faceless strangers and acted in a way to neutralize their potential to cause a collision, so whether they have seen me or not doesn't matter, and I don't care either way. Unfortunately, as you know as an urban rider, we can't launch a 100%-effective preemptive awareness strike on every other road user we encounter -- we are still going to be dependent on the awareness of others to some degree.
I suspect that there are actually quite a bit more drivers and peds who fail to notice me (and you, I suspect) than my 2-4 incidents per week average would indicate, but if I'm riding the right way with the proper awareness their non-noticing doesn't register because I have already assumed a fetid combo of blindness and carelessness in these anonymous faceless strangers and acted in a way to neutralize their potential to cause a collision, so whether they have seen me or not doesn't matter, and I don't care either way. Unfortunately, as you know as an urban rider, we can't launch a 100%-effective preemptive awareness strike on every other road user we encounter -- we are still going to be dependent on the awareness of others to some degree.
The last time I had a close call with a right hook was about six months ago. This little car pulled wide around me and carved a ridiculous squealing turn in front of me while I was riding about 20-25 mph. I avoided the back end by maybe a foot. I felt this had to be deliberate and in such situations I tend to want to contact the driver and express my sincere regrets, so to speak, especially if they are, as this driver was, caught at a light just a block away. When I rolled up to the car there was a lady behind the wheel with a completely dazed look on her face, staring straight ahead, mouth agape, and holding a giant ice bag up to the side of her head. Looks like she just got out of highly invasive oral surgery, perhaps. It's a crazy, mixed-up, pharmaceutical-ized world out there.
I think the reason I rarely have a problem with a right hook is that they are mostly easily mitigated with simple adjustments in position or speed if you're aware of the potential for a problem. I personally consider the right hook to be low-hanging fruit among cyclists' problems.
That's the point I was trying to make in an earlier post. MOST (never all) right hooks won't happen if the cyclist is doing the right things. But what are the right things? (That's what's so frustrating about this forum. Many come here to argue the semantics, and never even impart their wisdom about how a new cyclist can make the journey a lot safer. So I doubly appreciate the time you, Robert, spent on this post.)
Of course, when it comes to right-turning trucks that can literally run over a cyclist or pedestrian that the driver might not be able to see, right hooks have been deadly problems, especially in England (where they are left hooks) and notably and sadly this year, Portland OR. The length of the truck is probably more of a factor in these incidents than the height of the cab, as a truck driver must set up for a right turn from much farther left than the driver of a car because the truck's rear wheels track so far inside the front wheels. If they don't set up for the turn correctly, the rear wheels will literally track over the sidewalk and take out newspaper boxes and light poles. Often I see right-turning trucks waiting to turn and they are entirely outside the turn lane. This can easily fool one into thinking the driver means to go straight, and if there is room to filter up beside, even a very experienced rider might have a small lapse of judgment and filter up beside their last truck.
Robert
Robert
One of my phobias with trucks is that, after overtaking a cyclist, they can start their right merge safely, giving the cyclist a couple feet of clearance. But if they're going fast enough, their turbulence might literally suck the cyclist under their rear wheels. Is this possible? Or am I worrying needlessly?
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#75
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You're worried about being right hooked by someone passing you and then pulling into a midblock curbside parallel parking spot??? Stay out of the door zone (track at least 5' from the left edge of parked cars), Beck, and you'll be far enough left to practically eliminate this risk.