The facts about cycling in Holland
#301
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
ORS 814.400 helps to indicate what the principle embodied in Oregon law with respect to use of bikes on the road, probably could be said to be.
In Oregon, people riding bikes are acknowledged by law to have the right to use the roadway. (In the below excerpt of the law, the bold face and underlining is my addition.):
"(1) Every person riding a bicycle upon a public way is subject to the provisions applicable to and has the same rights and duties as the driver of any other vehicle concerning operating on highways, vehicle equipment and abandoned vehicles, except: ..." ORS 814.400 Application of vehicle laws to bicycles https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/814.400
"...Yes, he correctly quotes the law with his conclusion that cyclists are allowed to use the roads provided that they use bike lanes or side-paths wherever these exist. ..." John Forester
Not 'allowed', but "...effectively acknowledged by law, the right to ride the main lanes of virtually every street, road, and highway in the state, regardless of whether a bike lane, MUP, cycle track or other bike infrastructure exists adjacent to the road being ridden. ..."
Interested readers may study the entirety of the text ORS 814.420 (it's brief, easily readable...takes some careful thinking to fully understand.) to notice for themselves, the conditions detailed in the law, not included in John's remark above. People riding bikes in Oregon are not in violation of the 'Failure to use a bike lane or path' law, unless the bike lane or path meets all of those conditions. The law doesn't rescind the right to use the road people biking in Oregon are acknowledged by law to have, in exchange for a state of permission to use the road. In ORS 814.400, ORS 814.420, or ORS 814.430, all of which are bike specific road use laws, there is no mention of 'normal'. https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/814.420
In Oregon, people riding bikes are acknowledged by law to have the right to use the roadway. (In the below excerpt of the law, the bold face and underlining is my addition.):
"(1) Every person riding a bicycle upon a public way is subject to the provisions applicable to and has the same rights and duties as the driver of any other vehicle concerning operating on highways, vehicle equipment and abandoned vehicles, except: ..." ORS 814.400 Application of vehicle laws to bicycles https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/814.400
"...Yes, he correctly quotes the law with his conclusion that cyclists are allowed to use the roads provided that they use bike lanes or side-paths wherever these exist. ..." John Forester
Not 'allowed', but "...effectively acknowledged by law, the right to ride the main lanes of virtually every street, road, and highway in the state, regardless of whether a bike lane, MUP, cycle track or other bike infrastructure exists adjacent to the road being ridden. ..."
Interested readers may study the entirety of the text ORS 814.420 (it's brief, easily readable...takes some careful thinking to fully understand.) to notice for themselves, the conditions detailed in the law, not included in John's remark above. People riding bikes in Oregon are not in violation of the 'Failure to use a bike lane or path' law, unless the bike lane or path meets all of those conditions. The law doesn't rescind the right to use the road people biking in Oregon are acknowledged by law to have, in exchange for a state of permission to use the road. In ORS 814.400, ORS 814.420, or ORS 814.430, all of which are bike specific road use laws, there is no mention of 'normal'. https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/814.420
#302
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
ORS 814.400 helps to indicate what the principle embodied in Oregon law with respect to use of bikes on the road, probably could be said to be.
In Oregon, people riding bikes are acknowledged by law to have the right to use the roadway. (In the below excerpt of the law, the bold face and underlining is my addition.):
"(1) Every person riding a bicycle upon a public way is subject to the provisions applicable to and has the same rights and duties as the driver of any other vehicle concerning operating on highways, vehicle equipment and abandoned vehicles, except: ..." ORS 814.400 Application of vehicle laws to bicycles https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/814.400
"...Yes, he correctly quotes the law with his conclusion that cyclists are allowed to use the roads provided that they use bike lanes or side-paths wherever these exist. ..." John Forester
Not 'allowed', but "...effectively acknowledged by law, the right to ride the main lanes of virtually every street, road, and highway in the state, regardless of whether a bike lane, MUP, cycle track or other bike infrastructure exists adjacent to the road being ridden. ..."
Interested readers may study the entirety of the text ORS 814.420 (it's brief, easily readable...takes some careful thinking to fully understand.) to notice for themselves, the conditions detailed in the law, not included in John's remark above. People riding bikes in Oregon are not in violation of the 'Failure to use a bike lane or path' law, unless the bike lane or path meets all of those conditions. The law doesn't rescind the right to use the road people biking in Oregon are acknowledged by law to have, in exchange for a state of permission to use the road. In ORS 814.400, ORS 814.420, or ORS 814.430, all of which are bike specific road use laws, there is no mention of 'normal'. https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/814.420
snipped
In Oregon, people riding bikes are acknowledged by law to have the right to use the roadway. (In the below excerpt of the law, the bold face and underlining is my addition.):
"(1) Every person riding a bicycle upon a public way is subject to the provisions applicable to and has the same rights and duties as the driver of any other vehicle concerning operating on highways, vehicle equipment and abandoned vehicles, except: ..." ORS 814.400 Application of vehicle laws to bicycles https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/814.400
"...Yes, he correctly quotes the law with his conclusion that cyclists are allowed to use the roads provided that they use bike lanes or side-paths wherever these exist. ..." John Forester
Not 'allowed', but "...effectively acknowledged by law, the right to ride the main lanes of virtually every street, road, and highway in the state, regardless of whether a bike lane, MUP, cycle track or other bike infrastructure exists adjacent to the road being ridden. ..."
Interested readers may study the entirety of the text ORS 814.420 (it's brief, easily readable...takes some careful thinking to fully understand.) to notice for themselves, the conditions detailed in the law, not included in John's remark above. People riding bikes in Oregon are not in violation of the 'Failure to use a bike lane or path' law, unless the bike lane or path meets all of those conditions. The law doesn't rescind the right to use the road people biking in Oregon are acknowledged by law to have, in exchange for a state of permission to use the road. In ORS 814.400, ORS 814.420, or ORS 814.430, all of which are bike specific road use laws, there is no mention of 'normal'. https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/814.420
snipped
#303
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
snipped
" (snip) Consider what happens. The bike box provides an additional temptation for cyclists to overtake on the right-hand side of right-turning traffic, just so that they can get into the bike box. The obvious then happens: there are more right-hook car-bike collisions near those bike boxes.(snip) " John Forester #299
I don't think the city has come up with anything to suggest bike boxes are leading people on bikes to do this sort of thing. As I've said before, the boxes are just something the city has been experimenting with at certain intersections. They're not that great to use, because, for example, it's awkward to actually get into a box ahead of a motor vehicle that's already at an intersection waiting for a light to change. People riding bikes may not be using bike boxes much at all, for any reason. For bikes intent on through travel at an intersection, it's easier and better to either remain a car length back of the intersection, positioned in the bike lane if one is present and hazard free, or on approach to the intersection from a further distance back, transition from the bike lane to the main travel lane for travel through the intersection, a maneuver people biking in Oregon are effectively acknowledged by law to have the right to make.
Downtown, where I believe the boxes have primarily been located, are various intersections that tend to be relatively more problematic for motor vehicle-bike close calls and collisions. Personally, I believe it's greater numbers of people biking, and more of them not well skilled in riding in traffic, as well as the ever present hazard of various erratic people driving motor vehicles, that's resulted in an increase of collisions at certain intersections where bike boxes have been installed in Portland.
I don't think the city has come up with anything to suggest bike boxes are leading people on bikes to do this sort of thing. As I've said before, the boxes are just something the city has been experimenting with at certain intersections. They're not that great to use, because, for example, it's awkward to actually get into a box ahead of a motor vehicle that's already at an intersection waiting for a light to change. People riding bikes may not be using bike boxes much at all, for any reason. For bikes intent on through travel at an intersection, it's easier and better to either remain a car length back of the intersection, positioned in the bike lane if one is present and hazard free, or on approach to the intersection from a further distance back, transition from the bike lane to the main travel lane for travel through the intersection, a maneuver people biking in Oregon are effectively acknowledged by law to have the right to make.
Downtown, where I believe the boxes have primarily been located, are various intersections that tend to be relatively more problematic for motor vehicle-bike close calls and collisions. Personally, I believe it's greater numbers of people biking, and more of them not well skilled in riding in traffic, as well as the ever present hazard of various erratic people driving motor vehicles, that's resulted in an increase of collisions at certain intersections where bike boxes have been installed in Portland.
#304
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 1,832
Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
If you will note, Wsbob admits that it is safer at bike-box interections and bike-lane intersections, for the cyclist to move into the main through traffic lane than to use the bike lane, even when it leads to a bike box. This he says, is a movement that is allowed by Oregonian traffic law. Well, yes, and no, both. Wsbob uses this argument to demonstrate the legality of obeying the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles, when, in truth, the laws state, and the public believes, that cyclists do not have that right. This is all the standard American absurdity about traffic law for cyclists. First, cyclists have to be given the rights and duties of drivers of vehicles. If they did not have that, they would be trespassers on the roadways and limited to walking on sidewalks, and would not have the right to recovery from those who cause them injury. Then the specific laws for cyclists alone deny them the rights to use most of the roadway, sometimes prohibiting all use when there is a bike path alongside. Oh yes, these are the laws that the public remembers, because most of the public are motorists and these laws that discriminate against cyclists please motorists. Then, tagging along behind the big second set of laws is a third set of laws that attempt to give back to cyclists the rights to obey the normal traffic laws that have just been taken from them. That had to be done, because denying cyclists the right to obey the normal traffic laws, the laws for all drivers of vehicles, had turned out to be dangerous. The result is a confused mass of legal contradictions that nobody understands. The proper thing to do is to retain the law giving cyclists the rights and duties of drivers of vehicles, in the case where the state does not define bicycles as vehicles (which Oregon does, but then goes back on its word), and to repeal the confusing rest.
#305
Senior Member
Not "...we...", ...'YOU'. There doesn't seem to be comments from anybody else to this thread taking your view of Oregon bike specific law, that those laws deprive people that bike, of their legally acknowledged right to use the road.
It appears to have been common for some years, for numbers of people in Oregon to not read or gain a correct understanding of Oregon bike specific law...instead, accepting various superficially determined assumptions about what the law says, from unreliable sources. Word of mouth, incorrect, rather than actually reading the law and understanding it appears to be how certain people have come to arbitrary conclusions that their state has abolished their right to ride the road on their bicycle. Oregon has some people that are convinced Oregon's bike lane specific laws represent a taking of people's right to ride bikes on the road. They could consider working with their legislators to either correct or rescind the law. We may soon see whether they do or not. Oregon's biennial session starts up this coming January.
ORS 814.400 helps to indicate what the principle embodied in Oregon law with respect to use of bikes on the road, probably could be said to be.
In Oregon, people riding bikes are acknowledged by law to have the right to use the roadway. (In the below excerpt of the law, the bold face and underlining is my addition.):
"(1) Every person riding a bicycle upon a public way is subject to the provisions applicable to and has the same rights and duties as the driver of any other vehicle concerning operating on highways, vehicle equipment and abandoned vehicles, except: ..." ORS 814.400 Application of vehicle laws to bicycles https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/814.400
"...Yes, he correctly quotes the law with his conclusion that cyclists are allowed to use the roads provided that they use bike lanes or side-paths wherever these exist. ..." John Forester
Not 'allowed', but "...effectively acknowledged by law, the right to ride the main lanes of virtually every street, road, and highway in the state, regardless of whether a bike lane, MUP, cycle track or other bike infrastructure exists adjacent to the road being ridden. ..."
Interested readers may study the entirety of the text ORS 814.420 (it's brief, easily readable...takes some careful thinking to fully understand.) to notice for themselves, the conditions detailed in the law, not included in John's remark above. People riding bikes in Oregon are not in violation of the 'Failure to use a bike lane or path' law, unless the bike lane or path meets all of those conditions. The law doesn't rescind the right to use the road people biking in Oregon are acknowledged by law to have, in exchange for a state of permission to use the road. In ORS 814.400, ORS 814.420, or ORS 814.430, all of which are bike specific road use laws, there is no mention of 'normal'. https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/814.420
In Oregon, people riding bikes are acknowledged by law to have the right to use the roadway. (In the below excerpt of the law, the bold face and underlining is my addition.):
"(1) Every person riding a bicycle upon a public way is subject to the provisions applicable to and has the same rights and duties as the driver of any other vehicle concerning operating on highways, vehicle equipment and abandoned vehicles, except: ..." ORS 814.400 Application of vehicle laws to bicycles https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/814.400
"...Yes, he correctly quotes the law with his conclusion that cyclists are allowed to use the roads provided that they use bike lanes or side-paths wherever these exist. ..." John Forester
Not 'allowed', but "...effectively acknowledged by law, the right to ride the main lanes of virtually every street, road, and highway in the state, regardless of whether a bike lane, MUP, cycle track or other bike infrastructure exists adjacent to the road being ridden. ..."
Interested readers may study the entirety of the text ORS 814.420 (it's brief, easily readable...takes some careful thinking to fully understand.) to notice for themselves, the conditions detailed in the law, not included in John's remark above. People riding bikes in Oregon are not in violation of the 'Failure to use a bike lane or path' law, unless the bike lane or path meets all of those conditions. The law doesn't rescind the right to use the road people biking in Oregon are acknowledged by law to have, in exchange for a state of permission to use the road. In ORS 814.400, ORS 814.420, or ORS 814.430, all of which are bike specific road use laws, there is no mention of 'normal'. https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/814.420
" (snip) Consider what happens. The bike box provides an additional temptation for cyclists to overtake on the right-hand side of right-turning traffic, just so that they can get into the bike box. The obvious then happens: there are more right-hook car-bike collisions near those bike boxes.(snip) " John Forester #299
I don't think the city has come up with anything to suggest bike boxes are leading people on bikes to do this sort of thing. As I've said before, the boxes are just something the city has been experimenting with at certain intersections. They're not that great to use, because, for example, it's awkward to actually get into a box ahead of a motor vehicle that's already at an intersection waiting for a light to change. People riding bikes may not be using bike boxes much at all, for any reason. For bikes intent on through travel at an intersection, it's easier and better to either remain a car length back of the intersection, positioned in the bike lane if one is present and hazard free, or on approach to the intersection from a further distance back, transition from the bike lane to the main travel lane for travel through the intersection, a maneuver people biking in Oregon are effectively acknowledged by law to have the right to make.
Downtown, where I believe the boxes have primarily been located, are various intersections that tend to be relatively more problematic for motor vehicle-bike close calls and collisions. Personally, I believe it's greater numbers of people biking, and more of them not well skilled in riding in traffic, as well as the ever present hazard of various erratic people driving motor vehicles, that's resulted in an increase of collisions at certain intersections where bike boxes have been installed in Portland.
I don't think the city has come up with anything to suggest bike boxes are leading people on bikes to do this sort of thing. As I've said before, the boxes are just something the city has been experimenting with at certain intersections. They're not that great to use, because, for example, it's awkward to actually get into a box ahead of a motor vehicle that's already at an intersection waiting for a light to change. People riding bikes may not be using bike boxes much at all, for any reason. For bikes intent on through travel at an intersection, it's easier and better to either remain a car length back of the intersection, positioned in the bike lane if one is present and hazard free, or on approach to the intersection from a further distance back, transition from the bike lane to the main travel lane for travel through the intersection, a maneuver people biking in Oregon are effectively acknowledged by law to have the right to make.
Downtown, where I believe the boxes have primarily been located, are various intersections that tend to be relatively more problematic for motor vehicle-bike close calls and collisions. Personally, I believe it's greater numbers of people biking, and more of them not well skilled in riding in traffic, as well as the ever present hazard of various erratic people driving motor vehicles, that's resulted in an increase of collisions at certain intersections where bike boxes have been installed in Portland.
I did not offer my opinion about relative safety of bike lanes compared to main lanes or bike boxes. What I said was, (excerpting from 2nd from bottom paragraph of my quote above.): "...the boxes are just something the city has been experimenting with at certain intersections. They're not that great to use, because, for example, it's awkward to actually get into a box ahead of a motor vehicle that's already at an intersection waiting for a light to change. Bike boxes themselves or cyclists actions either influenced by them or not, don't seem to have contributed to or caused collisions or close calls between motor vehicles and bikes.
By the way...Hagen and Yama...thanks for the mention about reports of police in the countries you mentioned, citing people for not riding on bike specific infrastructure, where it exists. That may eventually happen in Oregon, but so far, as I said before, it rarely has. Read ORS 814.420 (2) for the glitch partly responsible for cyclists not being cited under the law. Adjustment in Oregon, to people biking on roads, is an evolving thing. Increasing numbers of people do ride. Reactions to more people on the road vary, but my impression is that, ongoing questions of paying for the infrastructure aside...it's generally and widely recognized that more people using bikes to commute and have fun, is a good thing for Oregon. The wiseacres and cranks bitter about more bikes on the road seem definitely to be the minority, though a loud minority.
Last edited by wsbob; 12-04-12 at 07:46 PM.
#306
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Not "...we...", ...'YOU'. There doesn't seem to be comments from anybody else to this thread taking your view of Oregon bike specific law, that those laws deprive people that bike, of their legally acknowledged right to use the road.
It appears to have been common for some years, for numbers of people in Oregon to not read or gain a correct understanding of Oregon bike specific law...instead, accepting various superficially determined assumptions about what the law says, from unreliable sources. Word of mouth, incorrect, rather than actually reading the law and understanding it appears to be how certain people have come to arbitrary conclusions that their state has abolished their right to ride the road on their bicycle. Oregon has some people that are convinced Oregon's bike lane specific laws represent a taking of people's right to ride bikes on the road. They could consider working with their legislators to either correct or rescind the law. We may soon see whether they do or not. Oregon's biennial session starts up this coming January.
By the way...Hagen and Yama...thanks for the mention about reports of police in the countries you mentioned, citing people for not riding on bike specific infrastructure, where it exists. That may eventually happen in Oregon, but so far, as I said before, it rarely has. Read ORS 814.420 (2) for the glitch partly responsible for cyclists not being cited under the law. Adjustment in Oregon, to people biking on roads, is an evolving thing. Increasing numbers of people do ride. Reactions to more people on the road vary, but my impression is that, ongoing questions of paying for the infrastructure aside...it's generally and widely recognized that more people using bikes to commute and have fun, is a good thing for Oregon. The wiseacres and cranks bitter about more bikes on the road seem definitely to be the minority, though a loud minority.
It appears to have been common for some years, for numbers of people in Oregon to not read or gain a correct understanding of Oregon bike specific law...instead, accepting various superficially determined assumptions about what the law says, from unreliable sources. Word of mouth, incorrect, rather than actually reading the law and understanding it appears to be how certain people have come to arbitrary conclusions that their state has abolished their right to ride the road on their bicycle. Oregon has some people that are convinced Oregon's bike lane specific laws represent a taking of people's right to ride bikes on the road. They could consider working with their legislators to either correct or rescind the law. We may soon see whether they do or not. Oregon's biennial session starts up this coming January.
By the way...Hagen and Yama...thanks for the mention about reports of police in the countries you mentioned, citing people for not riding on bike specific infrastructure, where it exists. That may eventually happen in Oregon, but so far, as I said before, it rarely has. Read ORS 814.420 (2) for the glitch partly responsible for cyclists not being cited under the law. Adjustment in Oregon, to people biking on roads, is an evolving thing. Increasing numbers of people do ride. Reactions to more people on the road vary, but my impression is that, ongoing questions of paying for the infrastructure aside...it's generally and widely recognized that more people using bikes to commute and have fun, is a good thing for Oregon. The wiseacres and cranks bitter about more bikes on the road seem definitely to be the minority, though a loud minority.
Furthermore, Wsbob claims that a better knowledge of bicycle-specific traffic laws (he writes about Oregon's, but, I repeat, Oregon's laws are practically word-word for word typical of those in nearly all states) would persuade people that, indeed, these laws do not take away much of the right to use the roadway. He uses the standard exception argument, that the exceptions written into the laws prohibiting the use of much of the roadway do indeed, in many cases, restore the original right to use the roadway according to the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. But that is precisely what I have been arguing is the great defect in such laws. That is, that the public has come to the conclusion that those laws deny cyclists the right to use most of the roadway, which is a correct understanding of the purpose of such laws, while it is only the specialists in traffic law who can come to the understanding that the rights just denied are now restored, although only partially and for those who know the words of the laws.
The deliberately confusing state of American bicycle-specific traffic law is designed to persuade the public that cyclists do not have the right to use most of the roadway while providing legalistic exceptions to protect that law from being invalidated by being held to be an inappropriate discriminatory use of the police power. Wsbob understands nothing of this; he thinks, as does Bek, that the present cyclist-inferiority policy and practice is just fine.
#307
Senior Member
John...I'm not saying people criticizing Oregon's bike specific laws are the wiseacres and cranks bitter about more bikes on the road. People driving motor vehicles that basically don't want bikes on the road at all, are the are the people I'm referring to by those terms.
I couldn't readily accept your word that Oregon's bike lane use laws are "...word-word for word typical of those in nearly all states...". Perhaps there are other readers to this thread that can. I've seen New York's, or maybe it's NYC's bike lane use law. Its language is fairly similar to Oregon's. I've read California's law, which I recall as being quite a lot different. I've posted a link to web pages offering the text to Oregon's laws. If readers here would like to post links the text of bike specific laws in their own states for a comparison, or for a reliable summary, I'd probably read them.
It's doubtful to me that here in Oregon, members of the public are widely under an impression that the law generally prohibits people from riding main lanes of the road where bike lanes, etc are adjacent or nearby. My impression is that people commonly seem to tend to be oblivious to actual reading of many of their state laws. Understanding of the law may far more commonly come by way of word of mouth rather than study of the actual law. Information from various books having a certain trendy appeal, of which your book may be one, may have fueled some of the word of mouth that's been going around some time. Ultimately, people are entitled to believe whatever they want to believe. If Oregon citizens feel discriminated against by provisions in Oregon's bike specific laws to the extent they feel the need to work to get those laws rescinded, that's fine with me. More power to them. I'll be somewhat interested to follow the progress of their efforts in the news or wherever. Meanwhile, I'm going to enjoy my right, acknowledged by Oregon law, to ride the road as needed.
Not to hijack this threads' topic about 'The facts about Cycling in Holland', in speaking of biking conditions in Oregon, city of Portland and the metro area.
I couldn't readily accept your word that Oregon's bike lane use laws are "...word-word for word typical of those in nearly all states...". Perhaps there are other readers to this thread that can. I've seen New York's, or maybe it's NYC's bike lane use law. Its language is fairly similar to Oregon's. I've read California's law, which I recall as being quite a lot different. I've posted a link to web pages offering the text to Oregon's laws. If readers here would like to post links the text of bike specific laws in their own states for a comparison, or for a reliable summary, I'd probably read them.
It's doubtful to me that here in Oregon, members of the public are widely under an impression that the law generally prohibits people from riding main lanes of the road where bike lanes, etc are adjacent or nearby. My impression is that people commonly seem to tend to be oblivious to actual reading of many of their state laws. Understanding of the law may far more commonly come by way of word of mouth rather than study of the actual law. Information from various books having a certain trendy appeal, of which your book may be one, may have fueled some of the word of mouth that's been going around some time. Ultimately, people are entitled to believe whatever they want to believe. If Oregon citizens feel discriminated against by provisions in Oregon's bike specific laws to the extent they feel the need to work to get those laws rescinded, that's fine with me. More power to them. I'll be somewhat interested to follow the progress of their efforts in the news or wherever. Meanwhile, I'm going to enjoy my right, acknowledged by Oregon law, to ride the road as needed.
Not to hijack this threads' topic about 'The facts about Cycling in Holland', in speaking of biking conditions in Oregon, city of Portland and the metro area.
Last edited by wsbob; 12-04-12 at 09:02 PM.
#308
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
John...I'm not saying people criticizing Oregon's bike specific laws are the wiseacres and cranks bitter about more bikes on the road. People driving motor vehicles that basically don't want bikes on the road at all, are the are the people I'm referring to by those terms.
I couldn't readily accept your word that Oregon's bike lane use laws are "...word-word for word typical of those in nearly all states...". Perhaps there are other readers to this thread that can. I've seen New York's, or maybe it's NYC's bike lane use law. Its language is fairly similar to Oregon's. I've read California's law, which I recall as being quite a lot different. I've posted a link to web pages offering the text to Oregon's laws. If readers here would like to post links the text of bike specific laws in their own states for a comparison, or for a reliable summary, I'd probably read them.
It's doubtful to me that here in Oregon, members of the public are widely under an impression that the law generally prohibits people from riding main lanes of the road where bike lanes, etc are adjacent or nearby. My impression is that people commonly seem to tend to be oblivious to actual reading of many of their state laws. Understanding of the law may far more commonly come by way of word of mouth rather than study of the actual law. Information from various books having a certain trendy appeal, of which your book may be one, may have fueled some of the word of mouth that's been going around some time. Ultimately, people are entitled to believe whatever they want to believe. If Oregon citizens feel discriminated against by provisions in Oregon's bike specific laws to the extent they feel the need to work to get those laws rescinded, that's fine with me. More power to them. I'll be somewhat interested to follow the progress of their efforts in the news or wherever. Meanwhile, I'm going to enjoy my right, acknowledged by Oregon law, to ride the road as needed.
Not to hijack this threads' topic about 'The facts about Cycling in Holland', in speaking of biking conditions in Oregon, city of Portland and the metro area.
I couldn't readily accept your word that Oregon's bike lane use laws are "...word-word for word typical of those in nearly all states...". Perhaps there are other readers to this thread that can. I've seen New York's, or maybe it's NYC's bike lane use law. Its language is fairly similar to Oregon's. I've read California's law, which I recall as being quite a lot different. I've posted a link to web pages offering the text to Oregon's laws. If readers here would like to post links the text of bike specific laws in their own states for a comparison, or for a reliable summary, I'd probably read them.
It's doubtful to me that here in Oregon, members of the public are widely under an impression that the law generally prohibits people from riding main lanes of the road where bike lanes, etc are adjacent or nearby. My impression is that people commonly seem to tend to be oblivious to actual reading of many of their state laws. Understanding of the law may far more commonly come by way of word of mouth rather than study of the actual law. Information from various books having a certain trendy appeal, of which your book may be one, may have fueled some of the word of mouth that's been going around some time. Ultimately, people are entitled to believe whatever they want to believe. If Oregon citizens feel discriminated against by provisions in Oregon's bike specific laws to the extent they feel the need to work to get those laws rescinded, that's fine with me. More power to them. I'll be somewhat interested to follow the progress of their efforts in the news or wherever. Meanwhile, I'm going to enjoy my right, acknowledged by Oregon law, to ride the road as needed.
Not to hijack this threads' topic about 'The facts about Cycling in Holland', in speaking of biking conditions in Oregon, city of Portland and the metro area.
You, Wsbob, are the second contributor who has remarked that this is not about cycling in Holland. What you forget is that this discussion was created to bash vehicular cycling, and specifically my own views, on the premise that things were done better in Holland. You can't ignore that the initial purpose was to bash vehicular cycling and my own views; I am simply responding to the actions taken in accordance with that fact.
#309
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Posts: 7,048
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 509 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times
in
8 Posts
...By the way...Hagen and Yama...thanks for the mention about reports of police in the countries you mentioned, citing people for not riding on bike specific infrastructure, where it exists. That may eventually happen in Oregon, but so far, as I said before, it rarely has. Read ORS 814.420 (2) for the glitch partly responsible for cyclists not being cited under the law. Adjustment in Oregon, to people biking on roads, is an evolving thing. Increasing numbers of people do ride. Reactions to more people on the road vary, but my impression is that, ongoing questions of paying for the infrastructure aside...it's generally and widely recognized that more people using bikes to commute and have fun, is a good thing for Oregon. The wiseacres and cranks bitter about more bikes on the road seem definitely to be the minority, though a loud minority.
So, in spite of a massive P.R. blitz and a tremendous amount of effort, the Portland area is stuck in the gutter with respect to attracting people onto bikes. Or maybe the problem is that they have actually had some success in persuading people to give cycling a try, but the infrastructure they have built is so screwed up that the newbies inevitably have a horrific experience and retreat to their padded cages.
Also, that loud minority of cranks and wiseacres, whom I suspect are actually the majority, can be pretty aggressive towards any cyclist who dares to take the lane rather than ride in a door-zone bike lane. Try it some time and see what happens.
#310
Mmm hm!
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,164
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
What an exciting read! I'm on page 3 now and I've come to the conclusion that John Forester is out of touch with reality. I spent about 2 1/2 hours reading several articles about VC, including from JF's website, and have concluded it is pretty elitist. John Forester, are you able to ride a bike? There is no way you're able to push those pedals beyond 15mph for any sustained amount of time. And any system that advocates that I follow the rules that cars do when it comes to stop signs and red lights...yikes! No thanks!
#311
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 1,832
Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#312
Senior Member
While technically true, there's not much to this. According to the American Community Survey, the percentage of commuters in the state of Oregon is remaining quite flat at around 2% (2.1% in 2008, 2.3% in 2011) and even in the Portland Metro area things have stagnated at a similar value (2.0% in 2008, 2.3% in 2011). Still, that's better than I'm seeing in Eugene, OR where we have lost one-third of our bike commuters over the past couple of years. And remember, this stagnation (and decline for my area) is happening in the face of what my car-bound friends assure me is a staggering run-up in gasoline prices.
So, in spite of a massive P.R. blitz and a tremendous amount of effort, the Portland area is stuck in the gutter with respect to attracting people onto bikes. Or maybe the problem is that they have actually had some success in persuading people to give cycling a try, but the infrastructure they have built is so screwed up that the newbies inevitably have a horrific experience and retreat to their padded cages.
Also, that loud minority of cranks and wiseacres, whom I suspect are actually the majority, can be pretty aggressive towards any cyclist who dares to take the lane rather than ride in a door-zone bike lane. Try it some time and see what happens.
So, in spite of a massive P.R. blitz and a tremendous amount of effort, the Portland area is stuck in the gutter with respect to attracting people onto bikes. Or maybe the problem is that they have actually had some success in persuading people to give cycling a try, but the infrastructure they have built is so screwed up that the newbies inevitably have a horrific experience and retreat to their padded cages.
Also, that loud minority of cranks and wiseacres, whom I suspect are actually the majority, can be pretty aggressive towards any cyclist who dares to take the lane rather than ride in a door-zone bike lane. Try it some time and see what happens.
hey, B. Carfree... . You bold faced my statement "...Increasing numbers of people do ride. ...". concluding, based on a survey and statistics that there's not much to the to the observation that increasing numbers of people ride. I didn't say it was my personal observation that more people ride, which I should have done. I tend to regard statistics skeptically. I'd say your own personal observation, and those of other individuals about whether more people in your area are riding, despite whether or not surveys and statistics appear to contradict your personal observations, are as important and possibly as valid as conclusions drawn from statistics in surveys. In my area, Beaverton, my observation is that more people seem to be riding than they were, say...2-3 years ago. For sure, still a very small percentage of all road users, the vast majority driving or traveling by motor vehicle.
About Portland's infrastructure for cyclists being 'screwed up': You don't offer any particular examples. It's being added to in a kind of retrofit manner...not as good as from ground up I suppose as Holland and Denmark may have produced theirs in some situations, but what's been done with bike lanes on streets and on bridges seems to be received quite well and works decently. Addition of streetcar tracks is one development that's creating some havoc. No great ideas so far about how to deal with making track crossings safer.
re; on whether motor vehicle driving cranks and wiseacres disliking bikes on the road are the majority or the minority: It may be your experience they're the majority, but it's not mine. They're out there, but most of the people driving motor vehicles I'm amongst on the road, appear to be making efforts to work with me, watch out for me and signals I'm giving them with regard to where I'm going. Conditions aren't perfect by any means. They're better off the main thoroughfares where traffic conditions are less intense.
"...You, Wsbob, are the second contributor who has remarked that this is not about cycling in Holland. ..." John Forester #308
I don't recall saying that. Doesn't really matter, because the more important subject is about what transportation infrastructure used around the world offers potential for improvements to opportunity to travel by a wider range of travel mode than motor vehicles. Holland and Denmark are two countries with prime examples of such infrastructure.
And with regards to your work in California, helping to draft that states' bike lane use law...that's all well and good, but Oregon is not California. Oregon doesn't necessarily do things the way the state south of us does. I'd have to dig it up and re-read California's text for bike specific laws to be sure, but as I said before, I recall it being different than Oregon's law.
Hagen #311...a job working for the motor lobby. What's that pay? Probably big bucks. I could use some. Not that they'd hire me.
Last edited by wsbob; 12-05-12 at 02:35 AM.
#313
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 1,832
Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#314
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
What an exciting read! I'm on page 3 now and I've come to the conclusion that John Forester is out of touch with reality. I spent about 2 1/2 hours reading several articles about VC, including from JF's website, and have concluded it is pretty elitist. John Forester, are you able to ride a bike? There is no way you're able to push those pedals beyond 15mph for any sustained amount of time. And any system that advocates that I follow the rules that cars do when it comes to stop signs and red lights...yikes! No thanks!
#315
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
I ask this as I personally witnessed many older folks readily riding the various bike paths in Oulu.
Could it be that a bike path system encourages folks to ride bikes regardless of age and athletic ability? I notice older folks often seem to enjoy cycling on the few paths we have here in San Diego around Mission Bay.
#316
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
snip
"...You, Wsbob, are the second contributor who has remarked that this is not about cycling in Holland. ..." John Forester #308
I don't recall saying that. Doesn't really matter, because the more important subject is about what transportation infrastructure used around the world offers potential for improvements to opportunity to travel by a wider range of travel mode than motor vehicles. Holland and Denmark are two countries with prime examples of such infrastructure.
And with regards to your work in California, helping to draft that states' bike lane use law...that's all well and good, but Oregon is not California. Oregon doesn't necessarily do things the way the state south of us does. I'd have to dig it up and re-read California's text for bike specific laws to be sure, but as I said before, I recall it being different than Oregon's law.
Hagen #311...a job working for the motor lobby. What's that pay? Probably big bucks. I could use some. Not that they'd hire me.
"...You, Wsbob, are the second contributor who has remarked that this is not about cycling in Holland. ..." John Forester #308
I don't recall saying that. Doesn't really matter, because the more important subject is about what transportation infrastructure used around the world offers potential for improvements to opportunity to travel by a wider range of travel mode than motor vehicles. Holland and Denmark are two countries with prime examples of such infrastructure.
And with regards to your work in California, helping to draft that states' bike lane use law...that's all well and good, but Oregon is not California. Oregon doesn't necessarily do things the way the state south of us does. I'd have to dig it up and re-read California's text for bike specific laws to be sure, but as I said before, I recall it being different than Oregon's law.
Hagen #311...a job working for the motor lobby. What's that pay? Probably big bucks. I could use some. Not that they'd hire me.
#317
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
snip
"...You, Wsbob, are the second contributor who has remarked that this is not about cycling in Holland. ..." John Forester #308
I don't recall saying that. Doesn't really matter, because the more important subject is about what transportation infrastructure used around the world offers potential for improvements to opportunity to travel by a wider range of travel mode than motor vehicles. Holland and Denmark are two countries with prime examples of such infrastructure.
Perhaps you weren't reading then, but your reply is disingenuous, because this group was specifically set up to provide for bashing vehicular cycling and specifically the views of John Forester, rather than promoting the activities and conditions in Holland and Denmark.
When considering the subject of urban transportation, it certainly is important to study and understand such examples as the cities of Holland and Denmark. When those cities have, for about twenty years or so, been the models that American bicycle advocates have admired and advocated for use in America, this emphasis becomes particularly important. But it is even more important, for Americans, to understand their own system of urban transport, first because they have to live and operate within it, second because without that understanding it is impossible to work out the probable effects of trying to import bits and pieces of the European systems. I don't deny that their systems work in their societies and conditions; my criticism of their systems is directed at what would need to be done when trying to important parts of their systems into the American system of urban transport. I write only for American cyclists operating under American conditions.
#318
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
the anti cyclist versus the facts about Holland
the following link is more representative of the drubbing franklin and forester got by the department of transport blogger over their methods of honk honk! behaving like a motor vehicle that spurred the discussion topic of the original post.
Franklin and Forester - two quacks in a pond full of Dutch cyclists
John might want to pay particular attention to the quote in the following pic from the department of transport criticisms of the furtive elitisms of vehikular cykling as a planning ideology for bicycle traffic....
Last edited by Bekologist; 12-05-12 at 12:23 PM.
#319
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
But today, as an older gent, having to deal with motor traffic, do you still ride? Or has your decreasing speed brought on by advancing years made it more difficult for you to maintain the speed which you feel is somewhat important in Effective Cycling?
I ask this as I personally witnessed many older folks readily riding the various bike paths in Oulu.
Could it be that a bike path system encourages folks to ride bikes regardless of age and athletic ability? I notice older folks often seem to enjoy cycling on the few paths we have here in San Diego around Mission Bay.
I ask this as I personally witnessed many older folks readily riding the various bike paths in Oulu.
Could it be that a bike path system encourages folks to ride bikes regardless of age and athletic ability? I notice older folks often seem to enjoy cycling on the few paths we have here in San Diego around Mission Bay.
#320
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
So here's Bek bringing up the signalling discussion, accusing me of breaking the law by signalling only when other vehicles are affected. Here's part of the legal history. Up to 1962, the Uniform Vehicle Code required signalling only when other vehicles were affected. In 1962 the NCUTLO removed that qualification, obviously feeling that almost all motor vehicles then on the road had been equipped with self-cancelling turn signals. However, the UVC is not the law, but a recommendation for states to follow. But not all states removed the qualification of signalling whenever another vehicle would be affected. California, not a backward state about traffic law but rather a leader, still retains the former wording "in the event that any other vehicle may be affected by the movement". I have not checked to see how many states use each form of this law. But in any case, Bek is incorrect when he argues that failure to signal when no other vehicle will be affected is violating the law. In California, and presumably many other states, this is perfectly legal.
#321
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
california traffic laws requires hand signals anytime traffic might be affected - which means a legal requirement to actually use hand signals in traffic, john, not like your method of specifically calling to NOT use hand signals - is totally beside the point... and NOT what i'm talking about.
Last edited by Bekologist; 12-05-12 at 01:08 PM.
#322
Senior Member
I did not write that Oregon had copied California directly. I wrote that the Californian laws became adopted into the Uniform Vehicle Code, which served as the model for individual states to adopt. Indeed, since Oregon chose to combine the mandatory-bike-lane law and the mandatory-sidepath law into one, different wording had to be used. However, the basic structure of the Oregon law follows the UVC model, with a first statement that cyclists are prohibited from using much of the roadway followed by a list of exceptions under which that prohibition does not apply. The lists of exceptions are the same, with their wordings very similar. That's no coincidence.
"...with a first statement that cyclists are prohibited from using much of the roadway followed by a list of exceptions under which that prohibition does not apply. ..." John Forester
In other words, where exists on or at bike lanes, bike paths, etc, what could be any one of or number of situations or conditions from what would be a very long list of bike lane and bike path situations or conditions covered under the list of exceptions directly part of the law, people biking in Oregon Are Not Prohibited from riding main lanes of roadways where bike lanes, MUP's, cycle tracks are adjacent to the roadway.
For any readers that would like to study Oregon's bike specific laws for themselves, here again, is the link to a site providing the text for ORS 814.420, and by the way, on the sidebar to the left of the page, also links to other Oregon bike related laws: https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/814.420
Last edited by wsbob; 12-05-12 at 02:12 PM.
#323
Mmm hm!
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,164
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
John F. hasn't gotten back to us on whether his advanced years make EC difficult for him to do, or if he even rides at all. I think that is really sad. Although older, he can still ride a bike on an enjoyable bike path. A few days ago I saw a couple on the waterfront riding very slowly (10mph) side by side talking and laughing. They were at least 70 years old! My hope is that John throws his old racing legs over the saddle and rides on a sweet bike path and has a great time doing so. John, have you ever been to Portland? If you are ever here we should ride together om the Springwater corridor, take photos, and drink some beers.
#324
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
california traffic laws requires hand signals anytime traffic might be affected - which means a legal requirement to actually use hand signals in traffic, john, not like your method of specifically calling to NOT use hand signals - is totally beside the point... and NOT what i'm talking about.
#325
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
John F. hasn't gotten back to us on whether his advanced years make EC difficult for him to do, or if he even rides at all. I think that is really sad. Although older, he can still ride a bike on an enjoyable bike path. A few days ago I saw a couple on the waterfront riding very slowly (10mph) side by side talking and laughing. They were at least 70 years old! My hope is that John throws his old racing legs over the saddle and rides on a sweet bike path and has a great time doing so. John, have you ever been to Portland? If you are ever here we should ride together om the Springwater corridor, take photos, and drink some beers.