spare_wheel

i agree that well-designed separated infrastructure is obviously safer than mixing it up with cars on a busy arterials. i disagree that requiring cyclists to use that infrastructure is the only path to higher mode share.

Bekologist

right. and that's why cities with much higher rider share see correspondingly higher ridership- practices and policies that encourage safety and encourage uptake of cycling, versus mixing it up with cars on busy arterials.



My, what a well stuffed strawman you're presenting to the crowd.

spare_wheel

if it helps you cope, you can think of portland's many 15-25 mph arterials (with cyclists in lane) as woonerfen.

Bekologist

Why would i do that? How nonsensical. fifteen mile an hour arterial roads?

My, you're confused, if you think that, or think portland's answer to woonerven are cyclists in the lane on arterial roads. Bikes are none too frequent on portland's bona fide arterial roads, esp. the ones without bike lanes. Go steel yourself for a ride on SE Powell or NE Sandy (I have) and you won't see any bikers. Except guys like me, and a few other hardy souls.

Portland's many NEIGHBORHOOD GREENWAYS are portlands answer to woonerven.


not hawthorne or better yet, NE Sandy "in the lane" but routes like the Salmon street greenway or the harrison/lincoln neighborhood greenways.

Neighborhood greenways=US woonerven.

spare_wheel

so you have apparently visited pdx and failed to notice that downtown pdx has signaling that limits law abiding (e.g. not me) traffic to ~15 mph. 4th, in particular, is a classic arterial and literally has thousands of cyclists taking the lane on their way to our famous bridges. and are you seriously trying to tell me that cyclists do not take the lane on hawthorne? really??? this 25 mph arterial is part of my daily commute, beks. i may even post some video.

sandy actually gets quite a bit of bike traffic. in fact, there are even patches of bike lane here and there. i suggest you google sandy on bike portland to witness some of the vignettes of people who commute on sandy on a daily basis. powell, on the other hand, is a limited access highway with very high speeds for large stretches. (i have taken the lane on the ross island bridge multiple times.)

i have no problem with "greenways" -- they are fine for weekend leisure riding and for children. when i actually want to get from point A to B efficiently i avoid them. and beks, my dear, have you actually cycled in holland? woonerven are not just out of the way meandering, pot-holed, rutted, "greenways" they often comprise entire commercial-residential areas. kind of like the commercial-residential areas in downtown pdx...(liking my analogy more and more)

Bekologist

dude, not just visited portland, ridden hundreds of miles across greater portland on many trips there with the bicycle.

15 mph arterial roads in portland? wow, that's quite the stretch. oh, you're talking about timed signal speeds..... that's not a speed limit.

4th? Are you talking about MLK on the east side of the river? That's FAR from being a 15mph road. it's signed 30mph last time i rode it, and there's not a lot of riders on it, its too full of fast distracted car traffic. River city Cycles is on MLK, but most riders avoid MLK.

I know Hawthorne. I've stayed at the Hawthorne Hostel, ridden extensively throughout that neighborhood, even enjoyed one of Portland's "Bunny on a Bike" ride one Easter Sunday.

Hawthorne isn't Portlands answer to woonerven either, there's a couple of neighborhood greenway that parallel hawthorne. Hardcore cyclists taking the lane on NE Sandy or MLK isn't the equivalent of dutch woonerven, dude.

--------------------

its funny to see a rider that enjoys one of the most facilitated cities in North America (and with an extensive US version of a woonerven network) complaining about the bike facilities as if they are holding back rider share in portland. Well, in a way, it does - because there isn't more of it! akin to the cycling capitols of Europe.

spare_wheel

you may have visited pdx but you clearly have no clue what its like to commute in pdx. google downtown pdx and traffic calming.

and this is SW 4th:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=sw+4t...37.35,,0,-2.46

i ride this 3 lane one way arterial on the way to the hawthorne bridge every day as do THOUSANDS of other cyclists.

and here is some "infrastructure" on this route that contributed to another ghost bike:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=sw+4t...,,0,10.74&z=21

spare_wheel

first you admit to riding the "bunny on a bike ride" and then you create strawmen. how do you expect me to take you seriously, bekologist?

Bekologist

oh, SW 4th. right. how Northwest of me to forget downtown Portland. I googled some select terms about portland cycling and heres what came up....



Hawthorne isn't a 'woonerven' neither is 4th or MLK. to the best of my recollection, the salmon street greenway is adjacent to hawthorne. the greenways are what passes in portland for dutch style woonerven.

Powell isn't limited access on the entire east side of the river, it may limit access to riders unwilling to ride in fast arterial traffic, perhaps spare wheel shies away from Powell if he thinks its limited access. Uncomfortable for many cyclists - absolutely. limited access? hardly, its just another busy, portland arterial road most cyclists shy away from.

I've ridden all across greater portland at typical commute times, ridden the bridge waves of commuters on hawthorne and the east side -maybe i passed you one morning? explored portland fully by bike. ridden there extensively. Ridden all the bridges across the river save the interstates.

just so everyone's clear arterial roads on portland like NE sandy, SW 4th, MLK or Hawthorne aren't portlands answer to dutch style cycling facilities.


Portland has an extensive network of neighborhood greenwaysthat parallels these main routes, that are portlands answer to woonerven, not intrepid cyclists 'taking the lane' on the arterial roads around town.

spare_wheel

Bwahahahaha!

Given that you managed to ride Powell and failed to notice the freeway ramps I think its safe to say that your powers of perception while cycling are quite limited:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=ross+...61,,0,1.8&z=21

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=ross+...70.13,,0,13.74


As for your men of straw, it is you who brought up MLK and Sandy, not I. And despite your claims, quite a few cyclists commute on lower Sandy into downtown PDX. A pic via bikeportland:

https://bikeportland.org/photos/photo...dy-blvd-8.html

And for the record Sandy is finally getting more bike lanes. IMO, the single biggest failing in PDX is the lack of bike infrastructure on 35+ mph arterials. Personally, I would ban all high speed arterials within city boundaries. The slaughter of innocent peds is not worth the minor convenience of propelling a cage at 35 mph.

As for Hawthorne, I will post some video of cyclists taking the lane as they exit the bridge ramp. It warms the cockles of my heart every day to see how many cyclists do this despite the 6 foot wide bike lane that unceremoniously takes you to a tangle of greenways.

SW 4th (along with SW 6th) is a major bike route leading to the south-bound bridges. I gotta wonder where the heck you think the thousands of cyclists who commute to PSU and OHSU go? Do they teleport across the river?

Despite your protestations there is enough of a "critical mass" in parts of Portland that a large number of cyclists feel comfortable taking the lane without separated infrastructure. In fact, as I've said before, I've seen a large increase in the number of cyclists taking the lane throughout inner pdx. Isn't this a good thing? And if not, why not?

genec

So when riding across the bridges with the wave of commuter traffic... did you find you could ride as fast as you can possibly ride? Or did you find that there were so many commuters that just like motorists you have to slow down for the traffic?

I-Like-To-Bike

Whatz with all the chatter about your Portland adventures? I thought you were insisting everybody else stick to the original OP of Holland and Dutch cycling with no deviation allowed.

I-Like-To-Bike

Haven't you heard, "efficient cyclists" never need to slow down for nothin'.

hagen2456

I get what you mean. I guess that in a budding bike commuting "culture", there should be as few restrictions as possible. However, if it catches on like in some of the smaller Danish cities, separation may be necessary to keep down casualties. "May" - because perhaps the fast and strong will be well able to handle there being a larger number of cyclists among the cars. In any case, they will be the only ones trying their luck in car traffic.

Bekologist

why are you laughing? all you've done is muddle arterial roads with woonerven in portland. talking about the bold cyclists boldly taking the lane on arterial roads means little when it comes to portland seeking to approach riding participation even approaching dutch levels.

which one is it spare wheel? Are they woonerven, or do they need bikelanes?




neighborhood greenways are portland's answer to dutch woonerven, spare wheel, not those arterial roads you now state need more bikelanes.

the only reason portland has so many cyclists is the bike infrastructure. the lack of it, like spare wheel says, is a fail.

spare_wheel

i see you are still experiencing cognitive dissonance about the fact that VC-style cycling can increase as mode share also increases. you started this silly debate when i suggested that you could cope with the increasing number of cyclists taking the lane by considering them to be woonervern. its amusing that you interpreted this to be a statement that SW 4th is a bonafide dutch woonerf. bekologist can, apparently, only see mode share increasing via one very narrow cycle path.

and, fyi, i have always been a fan of infrastructure on fast arterial roads. this is where it belongs. in downtown pdx where traffic is limited to 15 mph, further traffic calming and signage would be, imo, a more effective way to open up cycling to less confident individuals. in fact, this is actually what was done in many commercial areas in holland. woonerven/winkelerven are not a single rutted greenway, they are traffic-calmed neighborhoods! i think this is a good vision for both downtown pdx and other commercial areas like hawthorne and alberta.

an image showing two types of "woonerven":

https://www.jeffreypena.com/images/woonerven.jpg

technically a commercial woonerf is a "winkelerf" but the terms are used interchangeably.

hagen2456

I think you misunderstand what the Dutch Woonerf is about. Yes, the word literally translates "neighborhood". In traffical reality though, Woonerf is a place where cars may enter, but 100% on the conditions of pedestrians. Children are safe to play in the "streets" (which are hardly recognizable as regular streets but rather act like prolonged yards), and even cyclists must go very slowly.

What you're talking about is rather "Shared Streets" - and it's a concept that the Dutch are leaving behind them after having tried it. Such streets end up being used on car terms, meaning that neither pedestrians nor cyclists feel safe there. (except those who are strong and daring)


Edit: I've never seen the concept "winkelerf" used, nor can I find any references to it by Googling. Could you elaborate?

spare_wheel

i absolutely agree that separation is important when grandmas and children begin to bike in large numbers. nevertheless, i believe that separation can coexist with "traffic-calming" and "lane taking". its not an either or proposition.

hagen2456

Had you read the discussion, I think you wouldn't have to ask.

hagen2456

Or perhaps it's the other way round. Seems more plausible, neh?

I agree. It all depends on how the traffic calming effort is executed.

I-Like-To-Bike

I read it. Perhaps you should let Mr. Bek answer for himself. He is the poster so dang concerned that others stay within the strict confines of the OP.

spare_wheel

https://streetswiki.wikispaces.com/Woonerf

if you search fietsberaad you will see it being used...but its often used interchangeably with woonerf.

the implementation of shared space is actually a more recent phenomenon. in fact, the first large scale example began in 2003 and is widely considered to be a success:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q47umjW7GfE

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=18217318

spare_wheel

in the usa some cycling advocates believe that we can increase mode share be building a few demonstration patches of separated infrastructure. imo, the kind of networks seen in holland will only occur when there is also significant progress in education, liability law, enforcement, and traffic calming.

hagen2456

Re: Shared Streets: https://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/

genec

I think you mean "effective."