ViperZ

I happen to have a Denali, and no I don't backpack it, however under a shell it's good to below -40C. I bought it in the early 90's when fleece was part of the new jacket systems. I bought it because it was burly and I was looking for something like that. I have used it on its own to work on cars, cut wood in the winter, shovel snow, or wear it out to the farm....

I'm glad I have it in my closet to throw on when ever I need it. Like I said, it's a great crash and bash jacket that is handy to have. I wear it hard, and can't seem to wear it out, as such I guess I'm stuck with it for a while. Should I throw it away because it's not in outdoor fashion vogue anymore?


You seem like an intelligent guy, yet your posts all have the tone of a 9 year old Bully in a playground where others don't always agree with you.

vger285

Man does this work for me,i droped two hand warmers in the front inside pockets this morning and did a 21 miler in 26degrees,had a light polartec top on over that and a thin base t shrit,it worked great,the thing is to dress as close to summer as you can and stay warm, if you convience your brain that your core is warm it will let the blood flow to your hands and feet and keep them warm,but if it thinks for a second that your vital organs are in any danger, you had it,the system just uses the imformation you give it.(enjot the ride!)

Bekologist

don't get me wrong, viper,i'm real happy for you, but you're not exactly offering up vanguard advice about layering if you're still stuck in your Denali fleece and a goretex shell. That layering system is so totally 80's!

a Denali jacket packs up (if you decide you don't need to wear it under your GORETEX body condom) about the size of a pony keg. not to mention the limitations of wearing a bulky fleece jacket and a waterproof for aerobic sports. you see a lot of cross country and backcountry skiers in denali fleece and goretex. Wait, let me take that back, you see lots of greenhorn cross country and backcountry skiers in denali jackets and goretex.

how you can go about recommending this system is insulting enough to my backwoods sensibilities to call you on it. sorry. You keep pimping the fleece and the gore-tex for active sports, and i will keep disagreeing with you.

-looking at the malden mills powershield diagram, i see they have added a membrane to powershield. early versions of that fabric relied soley on thre laminating glue for windproofness, now it is glue AND membrane.- i'm not sure on how elaborate this construction is, the glue could BE the 'membrane' they illustrate.....

Powershield. some outdoor enthusiasts love it, some think it isn't breathable enough. I see lots of happy wearers on Mount Rainier foregoing their hard shells while wearing Powershield jackets.

The absolute brilliance of the appropriate softshell jacket is greater user comfort while letting the wearer forego a hardshell in 75-85 percent of weather conditions.

ViperZ

Just because I own and still use a Denali doesn't mean I don't own and use the new soft shells as well. Even though I own 3 new soft shells, the Denali still works and still has it place in my closet for when ever I need it.

I layer with the soft shells as well, is that vanguard enough?


Read how I mainly use it in my previous post. I have said, I ski and bike in my new soft shells, however I'll still pack along a hard shell, because that's call being prepared. You should know that....


I think what's really insulting you, is you have this wealth of back country knowledge, that for the most part is "Vanguard Thinking", yet there are still legions of people that are willing to stand up and say, new tech is all fine and dandy, but is not really required to play outside, the old stuff can work just as well too. Even from old "green horns" like myself, that owns all the new stuff, but can still embrace the old stuff too. To me one of the marks of good outdoor equipment is how long it remains useful.


Graham Hoyland Climbed Everest with old stuff, not requiring "Vanguard Thinking"




There are many ways to dress for the outdoors, people do this differently, and you really should understand this, in spite of what you or I think. I don't pimp just fleece and Goretex, I just say what works for me be it fleece, Goretex, uncoated nylon, polyester.... etc.


I think when it comes down to it, your continual barbs at me is because you think you know it all, and it pisses you off that somebody else can be comfortable sitting on a pumpkin, when you say we need loungers to comfortable. That, and You have been shown equally effective alternatives, and been proved wrong on a few issues we have debated now....


Again, I own and use new softshells, but I'll always pack along a hard shell. On a ski trip in Banff, I was wearing just a softshell for Skiing (Patagonia Figure 4). I was way too exposed feeling with this jacket, I had to put a hard shell on top to be comfortable. I skied the whole day afterward in comfort. If this does not suit your "Vanguard Thinking" then so be it, I'd rather be comfortable and warm, than cold and miserable because you tell me I should dress a certain way to be "Vanguard"

I ride to work everyday in -30C, there is no way I'm wearing just a softshell, no matter what you tell me... That's just too cold for my likings.


I have XC skied in soft shells, however I'll ski more with just 2 layers of thinner fleece, and a polypro base layer. I find XC Skiing with in the softshell is just too warm and restrictive feeling. For this the hard shell works as a better alternative, because it packs small enough to fit in a fanny pack, rather than one of my hard shell jackets. It's nice to have to throw on when I stop for a break or lunch.

PseudoCrow

I just finished a 35 mile ride wearing foxwear base layer t-shirt, a foxwear EVAP lite jacket, and foxwear tights over my bibs. The jacket and tights are the relatively new polartec material that is blocks wind and repels water, but also is claimed to breathe. The weather started in the mid 40s, overcast, misty, and with a 10-15 mph wind. It ended two hours later in the mid 50s, still overcast and windy. I was plenty warm in the 40s, and found myself unzipping the jacket 2/3 way down by the time the ride finished. But it was not at all a steam bath. Lou at foxwear makes the jackets with different polartec fabric under the arms and on the back panel, and most of the wicking happens in those areas.

So, to agree with an earlier post, this particular weight of jacket works well in the 40s, especially on cloudy days. I've worn the same combination in the high 30s, and was a bit chilly. I have a different weight jacket (also polartec by foxwear) that is warmer and use it on those days. So, I've been quite happy with the polartec in general and foxwear in particular, but I haven't tried the alternatives.

Lou's prices are extraordinarily reasonable, so you can try the material at a relatively low investment. (No connection to foxwear except being a satisfied customer.)

Bekologist

I rode in cotton and wool today, viper. temps just above freezing, a little precip.

ViperZ

That's nice... Is cotton OK to wear again?


I rode in a soft shell under a XCR hardshell today. It was snowing sideways with a strong wind, -7C Just wearing a soft shell would not have cut it, Hard shell was a requirement.

Bekologist

The Norwegian military uses a cotton blend cloth for their arctic uniforms, its very high tech. so are my filson cotton pants

and why WOULDN'T a soft shell work in winds and 20 degrees F? Soft shells EXCELL in that environment, viper, and that is one of the reasons I have to continue to dispute your faulty information. maybe you are just stuck in the 80's technology, thinking you NEED to wear your hardshells all the time for your garment security.

softshells work particularily well at 20 degrees F. Even when its windy.

ViperZ

It was snowing, and the collar of most soft shells, don't cover the neck as well or provide as much protection as a hard shell. I felt a lot more secure and comfortable with the Hard shell on top while riding today in a snow storm... If I'm uncomfortable with just a soft shell, I'll put on what I need to feel better, call it self preservation....

Faulty information? Sorry, I'm not trying to be condescending, but were you with me skiing to know if I was cold or not? Were you with me riding today when I decided to put on my Hard shell? The fact of the matter is you were not there, and you couldn't know how I really felt, so who's information is valid or faulty in this situation? It extended my comfort range today, not packing it along, or not using it would have been a bad decision.

Stuck in the 80's? I suppose so, it beats being cold and uncomfortable because I'm told I shouldn't be.

Bekologist

well, viper, a hard shell is NOT A REQUIREMENT, even when its windy and 20 out. and there are choices of soft shell that are both completely windproof AND have a helmet friendly hood.

I was going to tell you the Apex is a poor choice for a winter softshell but worried you might think i was picking on your poor choices in active wear.

A soft shell like the one the OP is asking about is likely to be a better performing piece, over a larger range of temps, and be a more versatile choice for winter aerobic sports,


than that 80's old school 300 weight polartec Denali fleece and Goretex bag combo Viper's always touting.

I've watched so many people go into the Fleece & Gore hypothermic shivers on ski tours for decades now- I KNOW there are better alternatives, and so do all the gear manufacturers. And it looks like Graham Hoyland climbed Mount Everest in his softshells. nice touch, Viper. I'd recommend to all winter sports enthusiasts to get a couple different softshells and experience a whole new level of winter clothing comfort.

Winter bicyclists will benefit greatly adding a softshell jacket and pants to their repitore. Leave the fleece jackets and goretex parka in the closets as much as possible. Or, better yet, just burn the fleece. Get a wool sweater to replace it, for better performance on its own OR under a shell.

you won't miss the fleece.

Jarery

I buy my 80 yr old mom fleece, but she doesnt cycle
The only time i advocate a hardshell while cycling, is in the rain, and never a goretex. Goretex is what i tell the idiot bean counter at work to buy for himself since i dont like him

The thread was about the original poster asking if a softshell made of powerstretch was a good choice and a better alternative to a hardshell. The answer in 99% of the population will be yes, a softshell will work better in the winter than a hardshell, for pretty much every condition except rain.

But a better alternative to powershield, is a softshell made without a membrane. Cycling is highly aerobic, breathability is therefore the primary performance factor. Powershield is at the low end of the spectrum. There are a few at the top end, and several new ones looking promising.

And for the times when a hardshell is required, there is much better than goretex. The problem with softshells, is they never were defined well, all kinds of companies made all sorts of softshells from all types of materials. Many should never be called softshells.

Just because a softshell is purchased from a high end company like arkterex, north face, or patagonia, does not mean it will perform well for cycling, only that it will be well made, fit nice, look fashionable, and be expensive.

ViperZ

It was actually the Patagonia Figuer 4 soft shell I was wearing today. Yes a hard shell was required because I felt cold, and snow was falling in my neck, I just happened to have one on hand.

There is nothing wrong with an Apex It's a top rated coat for the money. However I suppose it plays well into your constant disagreement with me. As for the hooded softshell, they can become even bulkier. And a person still has to pack along a hard shell just in case. Such as in XC skiing, when even a Soft shell can be too warm at times.

Bekologist

you are making broad, sweeping and false generalizations about hard and softshells again, viper.

a person does not have to pack a hard shell, and all soft shells are not too warm for xc skiing.
Soft shells with hoods are also not necessarily bulky.

(the patagonia houdini is an excellent ultracompact, hooded softshell, for example.)

I have no idea where you've come up with all that misinformation.

ViperZ

I suppose I am based on the 3 softshells I have used which represent a good majority of the soft shells out there, however be that as it may, that is my reality, even if it is off base with yours.

You may head into the back country or outdoors with out a hard shell, however I would not. That's just the way I am for I'm not convinced yet. Maybe that is because I have yet to try a soft shell that gives me that security and versatility, however I have looked and tried on many soft shells.

I have no idea where you come up with the idea that you know everything that is right for me. What works for you clearly does not work for me.

Bekologist

I think your false, sweeping generalizations about active clothing are what I'm more concerned about, rather than your personal poor choices in gear, Viper. you've convinced yourself, and are stuck in your thinking, that's fine, just don't inflict it on the rest of the winter riders on bike forums.

It's when you pass off your personal poor choices in outerwear as a good choice for other riders that i take issue with your faulty information.

Like when you say people need to pack a hard shell. or that softshells are too warm to xc ski in. or that hooded softshells are bulky. None of which is necessarily true. how you can assert this hokum on the rest of your riding brethern is beyond reproach.

Softshells aren't even NEW, the Cloudveil Serendipity jacket has been around what, since 1997? The North Face was even offering Schoeller Dryskin softshell pants in 1998. Before the 'NEW' softshell fabrics, there was 60/40 cloth.

Repeat after me:

You don't NEED a hardshell all the time.

A lot of softshells are EXCELLENT for cross country skiing.

Some softshells are extremely COMPACT, even with hoods.

and to the OP, Softshells are FANTASTIC for winter bicycling. but like Jaerey and I mention, the non-laminate softshells might be a more versatile choice than a Powershield one.

ViperZ

OK

ViperZ

Bekologist, I must admit, I was a bit bothered with all your recent comments to me in this thread and in some others, and had to ponder why that was.... You have never met me, do not know who I am, yet you converse with me as if I'm somebody to be slapped around with your barrage of insults and general abusiveness. I'm not sure what your issues are with me or if you generally treat all forum members like you have me, but I have tried to turn the other cheek and give you the respect you rightly deserve in spite of all that.


My Choices are based on many factors such as local climate and geographical conditions, knowing the limits of my equipment and personal comfort levels, the activity at hand, how I feel that particular day and a host of other things that you may not even consider.

You say my choices are poor, and make your counter arguments. Yet from the perspective of most Saskatchewanites, your choices would be equally as poor, if not worse in our given environment. Dressing for the outdoors is not rocket science. Common sense and the correct application to the local environment is the most important elements to have. People here have been doing it for many winters quite well, with out your telling us how it should be done, or that our choices are poor or wrong.

What business does a person from the Pacific Northwest have telling somebody from Saskatchewan how to dress for the outdoors, or how to dress when skiing in the Canadian Rockies?

I would never profess to know what is right for you, yet you assume you know what is correct for me and everyone else here…. How do your seasonal temperature and conditions remotely relate to mine?

Unless your conditions are the same as mine or anyone else for that matter, you do not know, and you yourself are making false sweeping generalizations regarding a garment in a given situation.


The very idea that you think you have the key to dressing everybody is impractical, It would not be so bad if you weren't so condescending and insulting. Then it would be a discussion.



You don't NEED a hardshell all the time True as some days I will not need one, however most days I should have one with me. I could not imagine heading out to the back country around here with out one stashed, even in the summer time.

A lot of softshells are EXCELLENT for cross country skiing. Yes true, but depending on the temperature and exertion levels, most times I have to wear my thin one or not at all, which tends to get cold when I stop, or if the weather changes. On colder days the thicker ones can be excellent.

Some softshells are extremely COMPACT, even with hoods. Yes true, but in order to be compact it may have to give up some warmth as well. Most compact softshells I have looked at are not enough jacket for our climate here and are designed more as mid layers. Of the ones I own, only the thin one will fit into my medium fanny pack, and it is much too cold to be standing around in. The others fit, but are on the bulky side, as such I pack a thin shell for warm ups. So far it seems not just one softshell will cover the full range of activities at hand.


What is your prefered do it all softshell?

Bekologist

viper, you are right, dressing for the outdoors is not rocket science.

so, without endlessly debating clothing technology with someone so caught up in their hardshell jacket technology - 'Softshells' are well suited for all climates and excell in cold, even arctic conditions.

About 12 years ago, a couple of hard core bicyclists/skier/climber dudes that lived in Jackson Hole Wyoming, saw and envied ski pants brought back from Europe by friends of theirs. This new Schoeller Dryskin fabric was amazing for active sports like biking and sking in winter conditions!

Convinced there was a better way to go about designing outerwear for winter bicycling and skiing, they designed and released the Cloudveil Serendipity jacket at the 1997 outdoor retailer show.


softshells. brought to the market by a couple of biking/ skiing dudes from chilly Jackson Hole Wyoming, who found there WAS a better way to dress than hardshells for active sports in wintertime.

vger285

turn The Crank, Enjoy The Ride!
(a Young Man Gains In Wisdom By Listing To An Older Man Share His) Shark Bait!

ViperZ

Bekologist, you see that is my whole point..... I'm not in total disagreement with you. All I'm saying is, in my experience, based on my climates and of my 3-4 soft shells, most times juggling and using just those jackets for the conditions and the activities at hand, work well enough. However there are times when they are not enough, or are too much for me, due to miscalculation or changing temperatures. As such, the hard shell is a welcomed relief to pack along to help fend of the elements by adding another layer, give me the ability to shed a layer, and then add it as a thin wind barrier, should conditions change, or when required. I have found it's a nice transition piece as well before and after activities. It's not like I want to be caught up in my hard shell technology, rather it's more a case of using what I have on hand, if so required, and allowing me to adjust and manage my equipment the best I can to my expected and current environments.


I'll try to have a look at the Cloudveil Serendipity, it looks like a nice jacket, however it's cut looks like all 4 of my soft shells, more of a mid layer. It is in between my Apex and Figure 4 in weight at 20 oz. The Fig 4 is 15 oz, the Apex is 25oz. The material intrigues me more than the cut, however I'm thinking I need a heavier weight. My friends own the one of the best outdoor shops in town that sells TNF, Patagonia, Mountain Hardware..etc. They may have one of these, and have lent me evaluation units before.


We have Skied Jackson Hole. Very nice, but not nearly as cold as Sunshine, Lake Louise or Saskatoon.

Bekologist

Viper, I grew up in snow country USA, 15 miles from the US Ski Hall of Fame, sleeping in snowbanks and skiing to school, I know a bit about winter as well.

I live in the Pac NW now, but spend a lot of time in the high moutain environment. mountain rescue team member for a couple of years, many years volunteering on Mount Rainier as a backcountry ski patroller. tested gear for MSR. Worked at Marmot pimping clothing and gear to outdoor enthusiasts

look. I'm countering your point of view on clothing. i don't agree with your points about hardshell technology as being great for bicycling. in fact, i disagree strongly. so we are going to have to disagree about that.

I've been using this stuff as long as i could get my hands on the 'new' softshells, and knew a 60/40 parka or simple supplex windbreaker left me more comfortable after a long xc ski when its 20-40 below than a goretex shell, even before Schoeller Dryskin was on the market.


I've been a techy gearhead for a long time. i've had great sucess with nonlaminated softshells, like Jaery mentions in this thread, of all type and variety.

Before there was the Cloudveil Serendipity jacket, the MEC Feratta jacket, before the North Face Schoeller Big Wall Bibs,the Patagonia Guide Pants, the Marmot ATV, there was the LL. Bean supplex anoraks and the Sierra Designs 60/40 cloth parkas, the heavy wool pants and stretch ski pants.

I have a softshell that is completely storm/windproof and has stood strong in high mountain rescues on Adams and Rainier in zeroviz blizzards with 70 mph winds.Its my high mountain, grovelling in full conditions winter shell of choice. It relies totally on how the fabric is woven to provide all the weatherproofing. it's not 'waterproof' in any traditional sense of the word.

I believe you have just not fully embraced the softshells, viper. It's okay.

Here's what seems VERY telling about softshells:
The whole concept of softshell jackets of this 'new' variety was ushered on the market ten years ago for winter skiing and biking by a couple of everyday bikers and backcountry skier dudes from Jackson Hole that started Cloudveil Clothing. And this softshell stuff seems to have caught on like wildfire, apparantly something is afoot......

I don't know if thats compelling enough for the rest of you....

ViperZ

That is really cool.... Really, I'm envious!


And that is cool too.... You know I'm not diametrically opposed to you. I like my soft shells for cycling and skiing as well, however I do find at times my softshells aren't substantial enough at times. Maybe it's the cut and design, or maybe it's the fit. If you find other wise then that's OK too, I don't dispute it, you may have one better suited for you. We all have our own levels of comfort. I have already agreed with you in the previous thread that Gore HS for cycling is over kill, however found my XCR jacket to work well, the few times I have used it too. If it didn't work with some semblance of worthiness, I would pitch it, really I would.


I too have gone through the ranks with a lot of that gear you speak of. I don't argue that soft shells are an advancement, all I'm saying is in my environment, I have not found the perfect do it all soft shell yet, If I had, maybe I would feel as you too (and would not own 4 of them ). Maybe that is why I still cling to the layering system, I find it still offers me the most choices and adaptable comfort within my range of equipment. Right or wrong, if that makes me a fossil or green horn, I have been called worse


Have a Merry Christmas