noglider 

Oh you of little imagination! When the air temperature is a little above freezing and the ground temperature is a little below freezing, we get a few layers of stuff where the top layer is wet and the bottom layer is frozen. There can be viscous layers in between. Half frozen is not a bad term for it.

Daniel4

I think what he meant was STP, Standard Temperature and Pressure where all three states of water co-exists - and yes you can see water transforming from solid directly to vapour too.

fietsbob

Suomi-Nokian studs have a pretty knobby tread molded with the sockets, they fit the studs into their narrower 700c :

Tyres | Suomi Tyres .. in comparison with their plowed Path tire

Tyres | Suomi Tyres

GravelMN

As a fellow nerd, I'd interpret "half frozen" as the state where 50% of the water molecules had formed crystals which were suspended in the remaining 50% of the water that was still liquid aka slush.

noglider 

Hey, I made it! Thanks for your help, everyone, especially cyccommute. You gave me confidence.

I put the CX tires on, and they fit fine. I wore more clothes than normal. I wore my boot-ish shoes with two pairs of socks, two pairs of gloves, and two hats under my helmet. I wore my fleecy jacket over my sweater instead of my raincoat. The raincoat isn't warm enough, and my fleecy jacket is always too warm, but too warm is better for when it's 21ºF.

I didn't lower my seat, and I did fine. The tires make a big difference. I felt them slip sometimes, but I also felt them grip. The knobs are not very big, but I'll stick with these tires. The snow will melt soon, and I don't have to ride in it much. Those Suomi tires look great, but this is New York, not Minnesota.

There is one steep hill on my ride, and it's poorly plowed, if at all. I used my very lowest gear, and at the power point of the pedal stroke, I felt my rear wheel slip, and then I felt it dig in. It was tricky to keep my balance. At a certain point, I had to stop and get off. But I definitely got through more slippery stuff than I did before. My tires and my newfound confidence made huge differences.

Here is the record of this morning's ride!

noglider 

Here are the tires I just put on.

SalsaShark

I've found that in a decent depth in snow (not ice) the key to get going and staying upright is to keep the gearing low enough, and your speed moderate for the selected gearing. Don't try to go too fast, as extra effort can lead to spinning out, and a loss of momentum. I find this especially true when going uphill on fresh powder, but the deeper the snow, the tougher it is to keep from spinning the rear tire while still having enough push to keep the front tire moving though the snow. In my experience, my limit through fresh snow (not hardpack) is about 4 inches or so, and still be able to stay upright.

cyccommute 

That's the "freezing point"...actually the triple point as Daniel4 pointed out. Gas, liquid and solid water exist in equilibrium but it isn't "half-frozen".

cyccommute 

Good job!

On the slipping tire, balance is the key and you need to be a dynamic rider. Move your body backwards and forwards as needed to maintain weight on the rear wheel. You'll have to exaggerate it when climbing. On a mountain bike, you risk too much weight on the rear and the front will pop up or too little weight on the rear wheel and it won't get traction. Snow is similar although you don't usually have to worry about the front coming off the ground.

A trick that mountain bike riders use in those situations is to pull your nose down towards the stem by pulling back on the bars. This centers the rider over the bike so that the front and rear are weighted properly.

Finally, you say that you have too many bikes but is one of them a mountain bike? From the late 1990s to present, mountain bikes have gone through some very radical frame design changes that automatically center the rider over the front and rear wheels when riding in a "neutral" position. Road bikes tend to be more front heavy...i.e. the rider's weight has more bias towards the front wheel...then mountain bikes. Road bikes have traction to spare but they need a lower rider position for aerodynamics. Mountain bikes forgo the aerodynamics for climbing ability. Think of adding another arrow to the quiver (aka a mountain bike) for winter riding.

If you really want the bees elbows, a hardtail with lockable front suspension is a good choice. When you hit the slushy stuff or soft packed stuff, unlock the suspension and let it find the path you need. If you want the real bees knees, a dual suspension mountain bike is pretty hard to beat for snow duty. The rear wheel squats when the suspension is active and grabs the trail (or road or snow) better. It feels like you are being squirted up a hill.

And if you do get a mountain bike, take it out into the woods during the summer. They are a blast to ride and you'll learn a bunch about how to handle a bike...much more then a road bike will ever teach you.

rumrunn6

desperate times require desperate measures. I remember telling friends and coworkers "I am NOT getting studded tires" well of course I did eventually. you may only need them for a few weeks a year, and afew tricky spots but they're worth it if you are falling. hope the new tires work fur ya, but if not ... for the face, yeah I like balaclavas that cover everything except eyes, nostrils and mouth. you can till cream your checks but they need to be covered and I always had to cover the bridge of my nose. these days I use mine for non-cycling events like roof shoveling and showshoeing. the bike helmet pictured is cuz I had not yet rigged a hatcam for the winter so I used my bike helmet DOH!

noglider 

Thanks, guys. No, I don't have a mountain bike. I've been meaning to, and this is a good push in that direction. Thanks for reminding me that the new ones are lots better than the old ones. I have an old Cannondale frame I've been meaning to build up, but maybe I won't. It's from the 80's or 90's. I should just pass it along.

My wife has a mid 90's Trek 820 with suspension fork. Maybe she'll let me borrow it, but it would need new tires. It has street tires on it.

cyccommute 

If you don't have a mountain bike, how can you have "too many" bikes?

noglider 

A fair question!

auldgeunquers

False assumption. Salt. Salt content varies which changes the freezing point of water in which it is suspended. Some water is solid, and some water (with more salt) is liquid. If 50% of the water is solid and the remaining water is liquid or vapour, I think the term "half frozen" is appropriate for general discussion purpose.

As another has mentioned, there can also be temperature variance between air and ground which affects the water in contact with the ground or exposed to the air in varrying degrees.

This discussion also omits the effects of sunlight.

The boiling point has little to do with this model. What you have described as "half-frozen" could equally be understood to be half-boiled. Imprecise.

And ... I like my skinny studded snow tires (26x1.75), but they do work better on packed snow and ice below -15 c. In the -5 c range they tend to bite into the snow and make fore more work than is strictly necessary.

Jim from Boston

How about "slurry"?

cyccommute 

Salt only changes the temperature at which water freezes...and not much at that. The mixture is still at the "freezing point".

Again, the mixture is still at the freezing point. It's not solid but it is still at that point.

A 1.75" (44mm) tire isn't "narrow", at least not in the terms that wolfchild and others are talking about. They are talking about using 35mm or less.

auldgeunquers

Just because you disagree with me does not mean we are both not wrong.

... I wonder if it possible to continue this and get sent to P&R for "passionate" discussion of semantics and physics.

I will stand by the definition of "half frozen" as describing a substance where half (or approximately half) of the mass is in solid state - a slurry as another has pointed out, rather than the substance being at a temperature midway between it's freezing point and it's boiling point.

And 1.75" inches is narrower that the 1.95 street tires the bike wears for utility duty when it is not rigged for ice. That said, I would like to give wider tires a try next winter - say 4" or so.

noglider 

I'm thinking of riding to work on Tuesday. The morning temperature might be as low as 5ºF. This would be a brave undertaking. I discovered that my crappy Nashbar gloves work well as an underglove inside my mittens, so that's good. I found a pair of shoes that keep my feet warm. They are very oversized, so I can wear two pairs of socks without pinching my toes. I own some ski goggles which I've never used on the bike, but maybe it's a good time to try. So I haven't decided yet, but I'm thinking about it. The evening temperature will be higher, but the air pressure will be lower, i.e. it will feel nastier.

Yesterday we got a fresh snowfall. The ubiquitous delivery guys were out there as they are all the time. One guy was able to stay rolling. Another guy had to push himself along with one foot, because he was having the same trouble I had with my smooth tires; he couldn't get enough momentum to pull his push-off foot up to the pedal.

Motolegs

This is my first year of all weather commuting. Have found that it's always a bit nerve wracking deciding to ride under brutal conditions, yet once actually pedaling down the road those uncertainties ebb away. That is unless I made a clothing gaffe!

noglider 

My experience is mostly like that, but I ride along the Hudson River most of the way, and it's windier and colder than the rest of the area. For one thing, the weather reports don't tell me about the Hudson River conditions. For another thing, my commute is over an hour long, and the effects of being in cold wind accumulate and get painful. That's what makes delving into a new low temperature scary.

rumrunn6

you might want to experiment on a weekend

noglider 

Hmm, a very good point.

But I do have a bailout option: I can toss my bike on the subway. And the temperature is predicted to rise throughout the day tomorrow.

Hypno Toad

This is my biggest pointer, keep your butt on the saddle, keeping your weight on the back wheel. I have had more problems standing on the pedals and having the rear wheel spin-out (& gone down once or twice).

In normal conditions, I like to stand on the pedals while I get up to speed from a stop. But on snow and ice, if you stand on your pedals, you're gonna have a bad time...



Also, non-studded winter tires with GREAT traction - Continental Bicycle -Top CONTACT Winter II

noglider 

Those Continental tires don't look so great, but I trust that they are. So far, I'm elated with these Kenda tires. I don't look at Kenda tires as excellent, but it's such an improvement to be off the Paselas in the snow. Sixty Fiver posted about his new winter build, which is inspiring. I might mimic it for next winter.

Jim from Boston

That’s a perennial feeling I have every winter, coming off of summer and fall riding…how low can I go as the temperatures drop? This winter for example, I went out at 17° F for my 14 mile commute back in January with some trepidation. A couple weeks later I similarly went out at 12°, and this past weekend it was 3°, and 1° at my destination. I hadn’t ridden at less than 5° for about the past 10 years.

I once posted to this thread, to include

One way to bolster my confidence, and keep the decisions simple is to keep a chart of what to wear for various temperature levels. Last Saturday, I displayed all my layers for that 3° 14 mile ride.





But see this elegant list: