rkwaki

I have one...
It came with a tube of lube. I use it without shorts for full effect...
I love it, it loves me back...

Doge

So after years of experience with BBs that thread in where I would place each loose ball in the BB - Puppy Doge (my son) gets new frames with sealed bearings and they press in - weird. BB30s (and others) are 5 years new to me. First new bike was Cannondale with BB30 and SRAM Red - no issue.

Last 2014 bike was MASI and we went Dura-Ace. 24mm crank shaft and press in cups that held the bearings 90mm width. The bike was stiff, light, Puppy sprinted well and I didn't think anything of it. In un-parting (taking parts off) the MASI a tech VP says the way the MASI did it was right on. Hmm, I thought, next bike. Now upgraded to a S-WORKS Venge (nice bike). I'm using the same DA parts and 24mm shaft and getting these complaints about flex (from a <150# rider) and well - the cranks move. The bearings are about 68mm apart on the outside!

So today I take it into my shop in Lake Forest and they say - go with these.
Wheels Mfg - BB30 Outboard Bottom Brackets
CONVERSION BB | Praxis Cycles

Seems like placing bearings at 90mm vs .70mm is an automatic 28% lever arm improvement. So if you don't use something like this - why not?

hack

Couldnt tell in your post, but I assume you were using the BB30 to shimano adapters (frame should have come with them). FWIW, I can feel some BB flex in my Venge that I didn't feel in my TCR (stiff like concrete btw). It's not a hindrance though. On the Venge, I just used some spacers and am running a BB30 crank. I thought about going with one of the converters you listed above and running GXp, but opted to just go to BB30 (can use the adapters if I want to bounce back to shimano, too).

Doge

You are correct. Bike came with some, I then bought Enduro and now have Wheels Mfg in there until I get this new setup. Depending on how you look at it I have spoiled my kid and he senses minute things and it goes to his head. So (being a weigh-weenie nutcase myself) I fix this stuff.

As I don't have them yet, I can't comment on what I ordered, but compared to the prior bike setup - there is a huge difference. I don't think it is frame, rather I think it is bearing position and adapters.

furiousferret

I've had issues with BB30 on my Cannondale. The thing creaks after sprints and goes away. Been looking for a solution outside of Loctite. I like my Hollowgram crank and don't want to get rid of it. Is there a bracket or something I can buy that stabilizes things?

Doge

I can't speak to the Hollowgram and actually as nothing is installed yet - this is all based on reading and recommendation. But, I think so. Look around at the wheelsmfg above and see. If you can move bearings from 68mm apart to 90mm apart (roughly) that is a big deal as long as other problems are not introduced.

hack

Well..I'll be interested in reading how the change feels in terms of stiffness.

globecanvas

I have Hollowgram cranks. It creaked intermittently after the LBS installed it and it was making me crazy. I took it apart and reinstalled with plenty of grease, paying a lot of attention to getting the wave washer preload correct. I added another shim or two.

"Tighten the non drive side fixing bolt to 40 Nm, and check to see if wave washer is properly preloaded (still has slight wave and not loose). If it is loose, remove the crankarm and add another shim."

It hasn't creaked since.

tetonrider

i own multiple bikes with hollowgram cranks (bb30 and PF30). installation is really key, but i can confirm that not all these cranks/BBs creak if installed correctly.

appropriate use of grease and retaining compound makes a big difference--and knowing where to use them.

topflightpro

Doge, I have not yet tried those bearing systems, but I have used the Wheels Mfg. adapters to put my Sram GXP crank on my Cannondale. It seems to work OK.

Is there any reason you can't also go with a Specialized crankset? The S-Works cranks is among the lightest and stiffest options out there, per the Fairwheel Bikes test: https://fairwheelbikes.com/c/reviews...crank-testing/. That seems like the absolute best solution.

Doge

Brand loyalty due to support.
While we could switch I want to first be sure we have exhausted our options.

His trainer has the Specalized on the Venge so I can compare. Puppy road both bike side by side and won VOS ITT on trainers Venge setup. Trainer's setup, the one you suggest, IMO (and puppy who seems to feel everything) is better than the current setup, but not as good as the MASI was with the outboard bearings.

I would like to see a larger shaft on the DA but Fairwheel isn't testing the BB - moving the bearings out. I think all cranks would benefit from wider bearing placement.
From the comments on that testing:
[h=6]Madcow
November 25, 2014 @ 20:06 [/h]Jim, our fixture mounts using a bsa bb and the Sram bb30 crank cannot be mounted in a bsa shell. We went with bsa because of universal compatability. That is the crank will fit on any frame not just bb30/pf30 frames. We are planning a future test of bb30 cranks though.

Doge

90mm vs. 68mm I think its just better.

hack

Nice ... how did it feel? Any creaking?

Doge

Nothing. Just orders two more for teammate who's dad like to make fun of me for my "techie" stuff.

caloso

All this BB tech talk has me like:

BSA or GTFO!

furiousferret

Speaking of which, just picked up the Super6 as they just rebuilt the bb **crosses fingers***

furiousferret

I seriously need to learn how to wrench. I had my bike worked on over the weekend and took it on a ride and the shifting is amazing. I always thought SRAM was meh but it shifts fast, smooth, and silent right now.

The shifting being off is my own fault since whenever I take it in and they ask when I need it by my reply is, 'When I finish this coffee...'

grolby

The people who whine about how SRAM/Shimano/Campy/whatever sucks and doesn't work right simply don't know what they're doing (no offense to you!). It all works great so long as it's adjusted well, maintained properly, and not broken. Part of the problem is the sheer quantity of 41-types who've Dunning-Krugered themselves into thinking they're better at wrenching than anyone who does it -professionally, full-time - at a mere bike shop, with the resultant chest-pounding about how "I don't trust anyone but me to work on my own bike." So a lot of opinions on the relative quality of the different groups are formed on the basis of incompetence.

Being able to do some wrenching is extremely valuable, but it is also wise to recognize your own limits. I learned a long time ago that, though I'm reasonably handy, my trusted local shop guy is going to do a better job 9.5 times out of 10 than I would. Something like basic shifting adjustments, though, I can usually handle and I think that's well-worth learning for anyone who does a lot of miles.

hack

Same here, well, at least I need to learn how to do it better. I picked up my bike from the shop last night and it feels amazing. I told them I did all the recent work on it and they pretty much laughed at me. Things not torqued right, too much tension here and too little there, and so on. They're good at what they do.

valygrl

I need help. Calling @tetonrider @shovelhd and any other DI2 gurus.

Here's the problem

Shifting problem on my new-ish DI2, has been a problem since day 1.
Setup: DA compact crank, 11-28 cassette (ultegra), ultegra chain, everything else DA 9070. There is a slight ding on the crank, a couple cm from the outside of the big ring. I don't know where this came from, but I had this crank before I had the electronic shifting, and didn't have the problem before.

The problem: For a very specific rear shift, it down-shifts itself in front.

I don't know how you are supposed to count the cogs, so lets just say #1 is the 28 tooth and #1 1 is the 11 tooth.

If I'm riding in big ring, cog 3, and shift cog to 4 (one cog smaller), sometimes the front shifts to the little ring. I think the front derailleur is trimming itself and the trim causes the unwanted shift. This happens occasionally on the road, often when there's not much pressure on the chain (i'm shifting up, after all) and I've only been able to make it happen on the stand once.

Every once in while, the chain will also drop from the big to the small with no shift, this has happened on very rough pavement only, not sure if it's related.

I've followed the shifting adjustment instructions from the shimano white paper a few times (before the trips to the bike shops) and that didn't help. Then I took it in to bike shops twice, both good shops.

The first time was to the shop who built it, who thought the front der cage was a little bent and straightened it, and the second time to a different shop, who thought the crankset was a little loose, and tightened it.

Any ideas? This DI2 stuff is supposed to be perfect, and it's not.

globecanvas

On my bike at least, FD trims itself with 3 cogs left (so, exactly the shift you are describing). But the trim is toward the outside if you're shifting to a smaller cog, which is the opposite direction from the movement that would cause an unwanted shift to the small ring. In the stand, can you see the trim, and is it actually trimming in the right direction?

shovelhd

Di2 is only as good as everything around it. This one of those situations where I'd really have to see it up close. Since I cannot, here are a few ideas. This is not normal behavior by any means. Something is wrong.

You mentioned a ding on the crank. On the crank arm or the big ring? If it's on the big ring I would suspect a bent tooth or a set of teeth out of alignment. That could cause the problem. Put the chain on the little ring and spin the crank on the stand with your finger rubbing the big ring and touching the FD cage. See if you can see or feel any runout. Inspect the chainring for bent or mishapen teeth.

This is 100% Shimano 11 speed, right, no cobbled 10 speed stuff?

Are you using a quick link on the chain? The only one I use is the KMC for 11 speed Campy and Shimano. It's very specific. Along the same lines, if you used the standard Shimano chain pin to couple the chain, it's possible that the pin isn't aligned perfectly and is causing the shift. Recreate the problem, then stop cranking and feel the chain edges along the bottom section of the chain that just left the chainring after the ghost shift. It should be smooth along both sides. I'm not a big fan of the pins and use the KMC links exclusively.

Finally, you could have a bad shifter or wire in the system but the chances of a ghost shift happening between the same two cogs has to be pretty low.

Finally, Shimano does make a diagnostic box for 9070, which a shop should be able to get. However this just seems like a mechanical problem to me, caveats stated.

Good luck. I am interested in what Eric has to say.

valygrl

Thanks for the thoughts.

It's 100% shimano, ultegra 11 speed chain, ultegra 11 speed cassette, DA 9000 compact crank, 9070 electronics, all purchased new. No quicklink on the chain, I just looked it over and couldn't find where the pin is and can't find any non-smooth parts on the chain. The problem is very intermittent so it's hard to test - but I changed my mind, i think there is not a front derailleur trim happening, i think it's just all mechanical.

If the chainring is bent, it's so small it's hard to tell - the ding is on the big ring, pretty close to the outside. That's my best guess right now, i was discounting that because i wasn't having this problem before i got the Di stuff. I don't know how to tell if there is something wrong with a chainring tooth - they are all a little bit not-perfectly-round - but i think that's the way the started out. I have to admit, I haven't examined this stuff enough when it was new to know if something is wrong with it.

I've gotten the problem to happen 3 times on the stand today, and twice the crankarm was in the same orientation when it happened, once it was different.

Do you know, if I adjust the front derailleur to be farther outboard, does it stay farther outboard through out it's whole range of motion? I don't know how the adjustment works with electronic, does it "know" where the inner & outer limits are placed and use that to calculate where to be? Or does it always trim at, for example, shift 5 and 8? anyway... not sure what I'm asking here, trying to apply logic to mechanical things, probably not a good idea...

Doge

Yes. I believe its that far screw. We have had DA Di2 1st and 2nd gen on Puppy's bike since he was 10 (a relationship deal). Anyway, I *think*you want the allen near the seat tube, We have not had your issue, so hard to remotely diagnose.

We have also had to adjust the twist in the FD so it angles out from back to front and had some chain drop issues (Puppy does not finesse that thing - he just shifts under every condition) . That does not sound like your issue, but mentioning.

shovelhd

9070 is very finicky about FD alignment. It likes to be 1-2mm above the tallest chainring tooth (they are all not the same height) and the cage parallel to the big ring. What can throw this off is the support bolt. Too tight, and the FD cage goes on an angle and shifting suffers.

I don't believe that the mechanical stops affect the auto trim but I never had an issue so I haven't had to investigate. What you absolutely need to do is do every adjustment in the order that's in the dealer manual. I believe it's mechanical first then electronic. If the mechanical is off and you compensate for it with the electronic, strange things can happen.

I wish you were close by, I bet it's a simple diagnosis. Can you post some macro pictures of the FD and RD?