Gary Johnson on red lights
#1
Pilot
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Cathedral City, CA
Posts: 18
Bikes: Giant TCR C1, Jamis Ventura, Davidson, Trek 4500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Gary Johnson on red lights
TNR article
“Look,” he says, “there are times and places where it would be perfectly safe to go one-forty, and there are others where it would be reckless to go fifty-five.” Within moments, he’s taking aim at stop signs and red lights. “I’m not opposed to the concept,” he allows. “But sometimes, you know, it’s 5:30 in the morning! There’s nobody on the road!” Johnson laughs, turns in his seat, and fixes me with a grin. “That’s the first sign you know you’re a libertarian,” he says. “You see the red light. You stop. You realize that there’s not a car in sight. And you put your foot on the gas.”
“Look,” he says, “there are times and places where it would be perfectly safe to go one-forty, and there are others where it would be reckless to go fifty-five.” Within moments, he’s taking aim at stop signs and red lights. “I’m not opposed to the concept,” he allows. “But sometimes, you know, it’s 5:30 in the morning! There’s nobody on the road!” Johnson laughs, turns in his seat, and fixes me with a grin. “That’s the first sign you know you’re a libertarian,” he says. “You see the red light. You stop. You realize that there’s not a car in sight. And you put your foot on the gas.”
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Posts: 612
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
“You see the red light. You stop. You realize that there’s not a car in sight. And you put your foot on the gas.”
...and get hit by the semi-truck you didn't see. Darwinism in action. Personally, I don't run red lights, because I know that my senses are not infallible, and I'm never in so much of a hurry that I can't wait a minute or two for a light to change.
...and get hit by the semi-truck you didn't see. Darwinism in action. Personally, I don't run red lights, because I know that my senses are not infallible, and I'm never in so much of a hurry that I can't wait a minute or two for a light to change.
Last edited by ianbrettcooper; 11-15-10 at 04:26 AM.
#3
Domestic Domestique
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,742
Bikes: Brand New Old Catamount! Schwinn Homegrown, Specialized FSR, Salsa Vaya, Salsa Chile Con Crosso
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
6 Posts
TNR article
“Look,” he says, “there are times and places where it would be perfectly safe to go one-forty, and there are others where it would be reckless to go fifty-five.” Within moments, he’s taking aim at stop signs and red lights. “I’m not opposed to the concept,” he allows. “But sometimes, you know, it’s 5:30 in the morning! There’s nobody on the road!” Johnson laughs, turns in his seat, and fixes me with a grin. “That’s the first sign you know you’re a libertarian,” he says. “You see the red light. You stop. You realize that there’s not a car in sight. And you put your foot on the gas.”
“Look,” he says, “there are times and places where it would be perfectly safe to go one-forty, and there are others where it would be reckless to go fifty-five.” Within moments, he’s taking aim at stop signs and red lights. “I’m not opposed to the concept,” he allows. “But sometimes, you know, it’s 5:30 in the morning! There’s nobody on the road!” Johnson laughs, turns in his seat, and fixes me with a grin. “That’s the first sign you know you’re a libertarian,” he says. “You see the red light. You stop. You realize that there’s not a car in sight. And you put your foot on the gas.”
#4
snob
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Vienna
Posts: 1,178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
He's right in a way, but I'd be really sceptical not necessarily about my ability to judge whether it's safe to ignore a red light (although everybody makes mistakes), but what traffic would be like if everybody thought that way. Is his comment here really that different from some 19-year-old leaving a party saying "hey, it was only a couple beers, I can't be that far over the legal limit, I'll be alright"? The way I see traffic laws, their purpose is not primarily to protect myself, but to protect other people from the recklessness of so called libertarians who think they can do whatever they want with no regard for others.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 4,556
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
This is what turns people off Libertarianism. People who grab at the ideas to use them for their own law they personally hate following. Maybe they want to smoke dope, maybe they don't want to pay taxes, and apparently some just can't obey traffic laws.
We can get rid of traffic laws. It's very easy. You ban everything but pedestrians and there's no need for any rules.
We can get rid of traffic laws. It's very easy. You ban everything but pedestrians and there's no need for any rules.
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 4,556
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
He's right in a way, but I'd be really sceptical not necessarily about my ability to judge whether it's safe to ignore a red light (although everybody makes mistakes), but what traffic would be like if everybody thought that way. Is his comment here really that different from some 19-year-old leaving a party saying "hey, it was only a couple beers, I can't be that far over the legal limit, I'll be alright"? The way I see traffic laws, their purpose is not primarily to protect myself, but to protect other people from the recklessness of so called libertarians who think they can do whatever they want with no regard for others.
The reality is that he probably can judge that light just fine. He could also talk to the city about fixing up the sensors on the lights so that he doesn't have to wait when there's no traffic.
Or he could adjust his route to the route that the city may be trying to encourage him to take (which may be why the light makes him wait for no reason).
Or just run it and hope the cop agrees with him.
Anyway, he'll want to have an ideological argument based on this one situation. He'll sneak into applying it to complex situations that are much more debatable after he's beat you on this trivial one. Your best bet is to hold to an ideology of your own: Unenforced laws are bad, we must adjust the law and not allow him to break this trivial case. He'll agree and you'll have ended this discussion before we end up rebuilding every intersection as a roundabout.
#7
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
“You see the red light. You stop. You realize that there’s not a car in sight. And you put your foot on the gas.”
...and get hit by the semi-truck you didn't see. Darwinism in action. Personally, I don't run red lights, because I know that my senses are not infallible, and I'm never in so much of a hurry that I can't wait a minute or two for a light to change.
...and get hit by the semi-truck you didn't see. Darwinism in action. Personally, I don't run red lights, because I know that my senses are not infallible, and I'm never in so much of a hurry that I can't wait a minute or two for a light to change.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Edgewater, CO
Posts: 3,213
Bikes: Tons
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
How about the meantime though when you're trying to get to point B and the stupid light hasn't changed for five minutes, despite your wheels being right over the sensor and there's no x-walk button? (It's happened to me)
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Green Valley AZ
Posts: 3,770
Bikes: Trice Q; Volae Century; TT 3.4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
. . . .
“Look,” he says, “there are times and places where it would be perfectly safe to go one-forty, and there are others where it would be reckless to go fifty-five.” Within moments, he’s taking aim at stop signs and red lights. “I’m not opposed to the concept,” he allows. “But sometimes, you know, it’s 5:30 in the morning! There’s nobody on the road!” Johnson laughs, turns in his seat, and fixes me with a grin. “That’s the first sign you know you’re a libertarian,” he says. “You see the red light. You stop. You realize that there’s not a car in sight. And you put your foot on the gas.”
“Look,” he says, “there are times and places where it would be perfectly safe to go one-forty, and there are others where it would be reckless to go fifty-five.” Within moments, he’s taking aim at stop signs and red lights. “I’m not opposed to the concept,” he allows. “But sometimes, you know, it’s 5:30 in the morning! There’s nobody on the road!” Johnson laughs, turns in his seat, and fixes me with a grin. “That’s the first sign you know you’re a libertarian,” he says. “You see the red light. You stop. You realize that there’s not a car in sight. And you put your foot on the gas.”
#11
Pilot
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Cathedral City, CA
Posts: 18
Bikes: Giant TCR C1, Jamis Ventura, Davidson, Trek 4500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Heck, I do it on my bike in the middle of the day. That's why it is related to biking.
#12
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
And no doubt as one "discovers" a failed sensor, you ARE left in the situation I mentioned above... do you wait forever, or eventually use your own senses to determine when it is safe to go?
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Posts: 612
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Don't you mean 'fallible'? Clearly, if the light isn't working, you do what the law allows, and what cycling instructors teach - you wait until it's clear that the light is faulty, then you proceed carefully. But your argument is a straw man: here we're not talking about a faulty light. We're talking about one that's working perfectly well, but one that is being used by a libertarian who is in a hurry, and who wants to ignore safety rules that might inconvenience him for a few seconds.
#15
Senior Member
I always stop at stop signs when I don't see any traffic. It's not the car I see that's going to run over my sorry ass, it's the car I don't see.
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Posts: 612
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I agree. Just a couple of weeks ago I came to a stop sign, stopped, saw no cars and immediately started off again. As I started off, I saw a car to my right, that I clearly should have yielded to. When I stopped I had been certain that it was parked, but as I started off I saw it clearly was not. Sometimes, only luck carries one through situations like this - if the driver had taken his turn, I might have had a bad day. Although, since I did stop, the chances are that I would have been able to manoeuvre more easily than if I hadn't.
#17
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Don't you mean 'fallible'? Clearly, if the light isn't working, you do what the law allows, and what cycling instructors teach - you wait until it's clear that the light is faulty, then you proceed carefully. But your argument is a straw man: here we're not talking about a faulty light. We're talking about one that's working perfectly well, but one that is being used by a libertarian who is in a hurry, and who wants to ignore safety rules that might inconvenience him for a few seconds.
The bottom line is that no matter what if at some point you have to chose to go on a red light... you have to rely on those same senses. (Heck I rely on those senses even when the light is green)
#18
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
I agree. Just a couple of weeks ago I came to a stop sign, stopped, saw no cars and immediately started off again. As I started off, I saw a car to my right, that I clearly should have yielded to. When I stopped I had been certain that it was parked, but as I started off I saw it clearly was not. Sometimes, only luck carries one through situations like this - if the driver had taken his turn, I might have had a bad day. Although, since I did stop, the chances are that I would have been able to manoeuvre more easily than if I hadn't.
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 4,556
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I agree. Just a couple of weeks ago I came to a stop sign, stopped, saw no cars and immediately started off again. As I started off, I saw a car to my right, that I clearly should have yielded to. When I stopped I had been certain that it was parked, but as I started off I saw it clearly was not. Sometimes, only luck carries one through situations like this - if the driver had taken his turn, I might have had a bad day. Although, since I did stop, the chances are that I would have been able to manoeuvre more easily than if I hadn't.
This is a big part of why I stop when I need to yield at stop signs, otherwise I slow and scan. I spend more time at the intersection than a typical person does, I'm not worried that I'm compromising my ability to check or yield. I'm compromising the appearance that I'm law abiding.
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Posts: 612
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I don't 'waste effort and thought' on stopping. It takes a little effort, not much thought. While I'm stopping I can easily focus on checking for traffic, and stopping allows me to spend as much time as I need focusing on traffic, rather than creeping through, feeling rushed and spending time and effort balancing a slow-moving and therefore less balanced bike. I choose to obey the law, not because it's easy, but because it's the right thing to do.
#21
Cycle Year Round