My Crime? Riding A Bicycle On A Public Street.
05-09-12, 07:10 AM
#51
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I suspect the cop had a copy of the vehicle code there in his vehicle. It's not the easiest document to read unless you care more than this guy apparently did.
I've seen enough videos of police misconduct to know that having more police on the scene is just as likely to promote police misconduct as prevent it.
I've seen enough videos of police misconduct to know that having more police on the scene is just as likely to promote police misconduct as prevent it.
05-09-12, 07:21 AM
#52
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Over time many/most police officers develop an unmodulated one size fits all approach to everyone they deal with.
They deal with low life liars all day long, so eventually they treat everyone like a low life liar.
If you resist them one bit (verbally)- you are asking for a bruising response.
I don't think the majority of cops began life as jerks-certainly a significant minority did- but after a few years they become that way.
Not sure there is much that can be done about it given the violent nature of the people they deal with?
Video devices have improved their behavior.
It is probably pointless to do anything that might antagonize a cop- I probably wouldn't carry a copy of any law-guaranteed to annoy this cop.
His wife showing up MIGHT have saved him from being arrested, but taking a different approach might have saved him from getting a ticket.
"Gee I never thought about putting a flag on it to make it safer-that is a good idea officer-thank you" on something like that.
It is like dealing with any other large armed dangerous person-do you antagonize them- or placate them? I don't get the impression the OP was snarky-but in general it is smarter to placate an armed angry person.
"RIGHT YES DEAD RIGHT" keep it in mind.
Besides-WHAT SO BAD ABOUT A FLAG ON A SOMEWHAT LOW VEHICLE?
Gotta be careful when dealing with armed angry people- "RIGHT YEAH DEAD RIGHT" unless you want to be a martyr(OP doesn't strike me that way-but he is an upper middle class white person-somewhat connected (Dr, Lawyer wife etc)-so he has very little experience dealing with potentially violent angry people).
Charlie
They deal with low life liars all day long, so eventually they treat everyone like a low life liar.
If you resist them one bit (verbally)- you are asking for a bruising response.
I don't think the majority of cops began life as jerks-certainly a significant minority did- but after a few years they become that way.
Not sure there is much that can be done about it given the violent nature of the people they deal with?
Video devices have improved their behavior.
It is probably pointless to do anything that might antagonize a cop- I probably wouldn't carry a copy of any law-guaranteed to annoy this cop.
His wife showing up MIGHT have saved him from being arrested, but taking a different approach might have saved him from getting a ticket.
"Gee I never thought about putting a flag on it to make it safer-that is a good idea officer-thank you" on something like that.
It is like dealing with any other large armed dangerous person-do you antagonize them- or placate them? I don't get the impression the OP was snarky-but in general it is smarter to placate an armed angry person.
"RIGHT YES DEAD RIGHT" keep it in mind.
Besides-WHAT SO BAD ABOUT A FLAG ON A SOMEWHAT LOW VEHICLE?
Gotta be careful when dealing with armed angry people- "RIGHT YEAH DEAD RIGHT" unless you want to be a martyr(OP doesn't strike me that way-but he is an upper middle class white person-somewhat connected (Dr, Lawyer wife etc)-so he has very little experience dealing with potentially violent angry people).
Charlie
05-09-12, 07:27 AM
#53
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the story is so affected!
"unmitigated gall"
"Lt. Chowderhead"
"capable of speeds that would make Lance Armstrong giggle like a schoolboy"
all in the first few hundred words. That last one- I don't think so.
Written like an attempt to win the 'worst bicycle writing' award from the Onion or something!
The writer also mentions in his story setup how he frequently gets comments from motorists it's difficult to see him on his vehicle.
Astonishing.
I suggest a safety flag and a superflash and a front LED blinky for anyone riding a tricycle.
"unmitigated gall"
"Lt. Chowderhead"
"capable of speeds that would make Lance Armstrong giggle like a schoolboy"
all in the first few hundred words. That last one- I don't think so.
Written like an attempt to win the 'worst bicycle writing' award from the Onion or something!
The writer also mentions in his story setup how he frequently gets comments from motorists it's difficult to see him on his vehicle.
Astonishing.
I suggest a safety flag and a superflash and a front LED blinky for anyone riding a tricycle.
Last edited by Bekologist; 05-09-12 at 07:30 AM.
05-09-12, 07:44 AM
#54
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I'd have a hard time stuffing a weapon of any size in my tiny little seat pack. Regardless, I haven't had any problems with law enforcement (yet, knock on wood), just motorists.
05-09-12, 08:30 AM
#55
You gonna eat that?
the story is so affected!
"unmitigated gall"
"Lt. Chowderhead"
"capable of speeds that would make Lance Armstrong giggle like a schoolboy"
all in the first few hundred words. That last one- I don't think so.
Written like an attempt to win the 'worst bicycle writing' award from the Onion or something!
The writer also mentions in his story setup how he frequently gets comments from motorists it's difficult to see him on his vehicle.
Astonishing.
I suggest a safety flag and a superflash and a front LED blinky for anyone riding a tricycle.
"unmitigated gall"
"Lt. Chowderhead"
"capable of speeds that would make Lance Armstrong giggle like a schoolboy"
all in the first few hundred words. That last one- I don't think so.
Written like an attempt to win the 'worst bicycle writing' award from the Onion or something!
The writer also mentions in his story setup how he frequently gets comments from motorists it's difficult to see him on his vehicle.
Astonishing.
I suggest a safety flag and a superflash and a front LED blinky for anyone riding a tricycle.
__________________
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi 
"However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
05-09-12, 08:35 AM
#56
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I know the majority in this section of the forum believe that they should take the lane, but that's really the crux of the problem here. The OP clearly stated that he was not hugging the curb nor was he riding as far to the right as he could. He said he was riding "as far to the right as he felt was safe". So exactly how far from the curb was the OP when this happened? Was he actually riding in the middle of the lane? If so, then I think the cop was justified in giving him a hard time. I was riding with a friend once who insisted on riding two abreast and we got yelled and honked at by multiple cars, something that never happens to me when I'm riding alone and staying way right. It's not that complicated.
Also, I guarantee you're not going to get going fast enough on your tricycle to snap a visibility flag, so put a flag on your bike. Lastly, if you don't have them, get blinking LED lights front and rear.
The simple solution: get a flag, get blinking LED lights, and move over to the right.
Also, I guarantee you're not going to get going fast enough on your tricycle to snap a visibility flag, so put a flag on your bike. Lastly, if you don't have them, get blinking LED lights front and rear.
The simple solution: get a flag, get blinking LED lights, and move over to the right.
05-09-12, 08:45 AM
#57
You gonna eat that?
See, that's that part the guy missed: The ticket isn't for riding in the middle of the lane. The cop smartly sidestepped that by nailing him on visibility to give him the Unsafe Operation ticket. Unsafe can be all manner of behaviors including, I bet, not doing everything reasonable to make sure a slow-moving vehicle is visibly identified as such to approaching traffic.
__________________
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
05-09-12, 09:11 AM
#59
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Obviously the cop thought it was safe for him to do. If the OP is so concerned about safety, how come he's not running blinking lights and a visibility flag? Let's see the road where he was pulled over then. I'd be willing to bet there was plenty of room for him to get right, but he feels entitled so he rides in the middle of the lane.
05-09-12, 09:21 AM
#60
Banned
Obviously the cop thought it was safe for him to do. If the OP is so concerned about safety, how come he's not running blinking lights and a visibility flag? Let's see the road where he was pulled over then. I'd be willing to bet there was plenty of room for him to get right, but he feels entitled so he rides in the middle of the lane.
Last edited by dynodonn; 05-09-12 at 09:24 AM.
05-09-12, 09:22 AM
#61
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Obviously the cop thought it was safe for him to do. If the OP is so concerned about safety, how come he's not running blinking lights and a visibility flag? Let's see the road where he was pulled over then. I'd be willing to bet there was plenty of room for him to get right, but he feels entitled so he rides in the middle of the lane.
It's not about entitlement. It's about riding in the safest, most visible area of the lane.
05-09-12, 09:31 AM
#62
You gonna eat that?
And the exact laws for (Connecticut?) need to be consulted as to whether he had any justification under the law for being in the lane as he was. But, if the cop and judge agree that to maintain safe operation, he needs to be more visible, the exact conditions and the law with respect to occupying the lane are irrelevant. He will lose his court case.
The thing to remember when dealing with law enforcement and the justice system is that the vast majority of people in the system have the perspective/bias of a motorist and will enforce/judge the law accordingly.
The thing to remember when dealing with law enforcement and the justice system is that the vast majority of people in the system have the perspective/bias of a motorist and will enforce/judge the law accordingly.
__________________
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
05-09-12, 09:42 AM
#63
Banned
An interesting article on trikes.
https://www.icetrikes.co/explore-our-...ents-explained
Q: Will cars and other vehicles be able to see me?
A: Yes, We find that other vehicles tend to give trike riders a wide berth as they are not used to seeing trikes on the road. The trike comes with a hi-visibility flag for extra visibility. People in cars have no problem seeing the trike and rider; after all, road markings are a lot lower and are easily seen by motorists.
https://www.icetrikes.co/explore-our-...ents-explained
Q: Will cars and other vehicles be able to see me?
A: Yes, We find that other vehicles tend to give trike riders a wide berth as they are not used to seeing trikes on the road. The trike comes with a hi-visibility flag for extra visibility. People in cars have no problem seeing the trike and rider; after all, road markings are a lot lower and are easily seen by motorists.
05-09-12, 09:43 AM
#64
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Right-The Flag.
I'm still unclear on why the OP thinks a Flag is a bad idea?
He has been told by many many drivers that he is hard to see,
But he insists that since they eventually see him well enough to yell at him -that he is visible enough.
He isn't an idiot-so he knows that those drivers were telling him " I barely saw you" or "I saw you at the last second " and
"I almost ran you over because you are below my usual sight line"
What kind of instructor doesn't understand what those drivers are trying to tell him??
You imply-but don't say-that a flag won't make your bike more noticeable??
Predators-us-notice change in movement .A flag wobbling around in drivers sight lines will attract their attention.Part of the justification of the "take the lane" is to make yourself more visible.
Heck with cell phones and texting we need it.
Cop had a point.
I'm still unclear on why the OP thinks a Flag is a bad idea?
He has been told by many many drivers that he is hard to see,
But he insists that since they eventually see him well enough to yell at him -that he is visible enough.
He isn't an idiot-so he knows that those drivers were telling him " I barely saw you" or "I saw you at the last second " and
"I almost ran you over because you are below my usual sight line"
What kind of instructor doesn't understand what those drivers are trying to tell him??
You imply-but don't say-that a flag won't make your bike more noticeable??
Predators-us-notice change in movement .A flag wobbling around in drivers sight lines will attract their attention.Part of the justification of the "take the lane" is to make yourself more visible.
Heck with cell phones and texting we need it.
Cop had a point.
05-09-12, 09:55 AM
#66
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if a piece of safety equipment is not a legal requirement, a LEO should drive on by and mutter "should have a flag" under his breath and let it go. A traffic stop for a non-existent requirement is not appropriate.
05-09-12, 10:17 AM
#67
Senior Member
I never cease to be amazed at the number of people who feel you should meekly comply with anything a cop says because, "he's a cop".
05-09-12, 10:24 AM
#68
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05-09-12, 10:40 AM
#69
Banned
For the hard core criminal element, having a firearm is probably their reasoning for complying with an LEO, but for John/Jane Q. Public, it's the LEO's ability to initiate a long, arduous, costly travel through the legal system.
05-09-12, 10:43 AM
#70
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Of course standing up for your rights is a good thing... when it helps. It's usually beneficial to only assert your rights when you actually need to. For instance, if you use your right not to have a cop search your car when he asks, he is most likely going to assume you have something to hide. Calling for backup is standard procedure in most locales, I'm guessing it was just a slow day.. In most places it's the law that you must have proper identification on you at all times, so that in itself is reason enough for a cop to call for backup in their mind.
I'm just stating my opinions based on extensive experience with law enforcement... I'm not saying it's right or anything... but the fact is that being assertive towards police officers will often do more harm than good, and you're usually best off just having them do what they'll do, and take care of it in court later.
I'm just stating my opinions based on extensive experience with law enforcement... I'm not saying it's right or anything... but the fact is that being assertive towards police officers will often do more harm than good, and you're usually best off just having them do what they'll do, and take care of it in court later.
As a former LEO myself, your obvious fear of pissing off cops only confirms what I already knew...cops these days are not doing themselves any good in the PR department with this militaristic, violent, mob mentality that goes way beyond the typical us-vs-them syndrome that comes with the job.
The very same advice you seem to be offering to the OP goes double for LEOs...you get much farther with honey than you do with a billy club.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
05-09-12, 10:45 AM
#71
genec
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I pretty much agree, and I think the bit about not having hi-viz devices (lights/flag) is what will get him convicted of Unsafe Operation. The cop did it right; he didn't write the ticket for a BS offense like "riding a bicycle in the traffic lane"; he wrote it for unsafe operation and can come up with a good justification of that, based on visibility of the low-slung bike. His explanation of the unsafe operation might be kind of bogus, at least in a cyclist's eyes, but when discernment/judgment is involved, the bench will side with the cop every time. If the guy is st00pid enough to ask for a jury trial, he'll find that jurists hate bicycles more than law enforcement (Reed Bates found that out the hard way). Like Reed, arrogance will be his downfall.
05-09-12, 10:47 AM
#72
genec
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Calling for backup, as a citizen, when you are in fear of being brutalized by chowderheads, is also a good standard operating practice. The fact that his wife is an attorney is irrelevant...her important function was to be a witness.
As a former LEO myself, your obvious fear of pissing off cops only confirms what I already knew...cops these days are not doing themselves any good in the PR department with this militaristic, violent, jackbooted thug mentality that goes way beyond the typical us-vs-them syndrome that comes with the job.
The very same advice you seem to be offering to the OP goes double for LEOs...you get much farther with honey than you do with a billy club.
As a former LEO myself, your obvious fear of pissing off cops only confirms what I already knew...cops these days are not doing themselves any good in the PR department with this militaristic, violent, jackbooted thug mentality that goes way beyond the typical us-vs-them syndrome that comes with the job.
The very same advice you seem to be offering to the OP goes double for LEOs...you get much farther with honey than you do with a billy club.
05-09-12, 10:48 AM
#73
Geck, wo ist mein Fahrrad
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IMO this looks like a situation of bully cop meets ass chiropractor. instructor or not the tricycler seems to enjoy yanking chains. those tri-racers are too low to be safely seen whatever part of the road they're in. and you are entitled to call legal council, be it your wife or mommy.
passive-aggressive meets aggressive-aggressive. who wins? they both think they did.
now I'm going shopping for one of those little slo-mo vehicle triangles for my trailer because I would like drivers to see it.
05-09-12, 10:49 AM
#74
You gonna eat that?
Good point.
__________________
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.
Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
05-09-12, 10:49 AM
#75
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Yeah angry guy with gun-
Makes me meekly comply every-time.
Many of you guys seem to have no idea on just how violent/bad cops can be.
I agree that this was probably brought on by "taking the whole lane" not FRAPing the way most drivers-and cops- interpret FRAP.Don't want to argue FRAP today-since it is soooo subjective. Good thing about bike lanes-no FRAP crap concerns.
Besides the flag is a good idea.
OP should tell us why it isn't?
Makes me meekly comply every-time.
Many of you guys seem to have no idea on just how violent/bad cops can be.
I agree that this was probably brought on by "taking the whole lane" not FRAPing the way most drivers-and cops- interpret FRAP.Don't want to argue FRAP today-since it is soooo subjective. Good thing about bike lanes-no FRAP crap concerns.
Besides the flag is a good idea.
OP should tell us why it isn't?
Last edited by phoebeisis; 05-09-12 at 12:43 PM.