My Crime? Riding A Bicycle On A Public Street.
05-09-12, 09:51 PM
#126
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The OP broke a major unwritten law: "Contempt of Cop". He didn't behave in a contemptuous manner, but he did try to stand up for himself and assert his rights and his knowledge. Cops hate that, especially when they're wrong or making up rules in their head. My rule when dealing with the police is to never answer anything that isn't a direct question, and to keep the answer as brief as possible. If the cop wants to argue, tell them you'd rather save your arguments for the judge.
Do not be afraid of going to court without a lawyer. One can ask to speak to the city attorney before entering a plea, and those people are very easy to speak with, get clarification of the charges, and possibly get them to dismiss the charges. One might need a lawyer later on, but give the prosecutor a chance to see your reasoning before doing so.
I am NOT a lawyer, but I have been to municipal court a number of times, and came out better for it, rather than just paying a fine.
Do not be afraid of going to court without a lawyer. One can ask to speak to the city attorney before entering a plea, and those people are very easy to speak with, get clarification of the charges, and possibly get them to dismiss the charges. One might need a lawyer later on, but give the prosecutor a chance to see your reasoning before doing so.
I am NOT a lawyer, but I have been to municipal court a number of times, and came out better for it, rather than just paying a fine.
05-10-12, 02:55 AM
#127
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See, that's that part the guy missed: The ticket isn't for riding in the middle of the lane. The cop smartly sidestepped that by nailing him on visibility to give him the Unsafe Operation ticket. Unsafe can be all manner of behaviors including, I bet, not doing everything reasonable to make sure a slow-moving vehicle is visibly identified as such to approaching traffic.
Another instance that comes to mind while not involving a cop did involve an off duty firefighter who was so outraged that his advice concerning the welfare of a couple's child while they were riding on what he (the firefighter) considered to be a "dangerous" road pulled out his gun and fired a round at the father. Who ironically was the who was the one who was carrying said child on his bicycle.
As for the flying of a "safety flag" from the OP's 'bent trike unless there is some actual Connecticut law that requires it the cop is out of luck. Even if it isn't it might not be a bad idea for the OP to do so anyway.
I don't have a 'bent (trike or otherwise) but if I did I'd probably would fly a "safety flag" or more likely a US and/or Fl flag. I do however have a Yakima Big Tow trailer and I do fly it's "safety flag." If for no other reason then to let motorists behind me know that my footprint is longer than normal and that they might not see my trailer.
BUT not all trailers come with flags.
It also wouldn't surprise me if the OP's wife had already suggested that he install a "safety flag" on his trike to avoid this in the future.
05-10-12, 03:00 AM
#128
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Agreed, and if it isn't required by law for adults then when the OP goes to court the LEO is the one who is going to end up looking bad. In that case the OP just might want to be careful out on the road as said LEO might come looking for some payback.
05-10-12, 03:02 AM
#129
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That's a good point. Whenever I watch the show "Cops" I'm also amazed at the number of people who when stopped will allow the cop to search their car. Or who even after having been read their rights will continue to talk just digging themselves deeper and deeper.
05-10-12, 03:05 AM
#130
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Which I think backfired on him as it where when the OP's wife showed up and his (the LEO's) buddies started to leave the scene.
05-10-12, 03:08 AM
#131
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The driver right behind this 'bent can see it easily, but the driver behind that driver has no idea why the apparent "lead car" is going so slow, and some "idiots behind the wheel" get real antsy when they perceive that something is slowing them down... there is a good chance that a driver behind can swoop around the lead car and then run into the cyclist (just had that happen here when a motorist in an SUV swooped around a city bus, and killed a cyclist). Also folks making left turns will perceive that low vehicle as a gap in traffic... heck those left turners often don't see "diamond frame" bikes; a low trike is invisible.
So while the cyclist in the OP is not required to have a flag... for his own safety, he probably should. This BTW is one reason I don't ride a bent... too low to be seen and too low to see over traffic. I have long considered acquiring a 'bent, but just don't like the visibility factors. Now is this all ticketable... I doubt it. This of course is JMHO.
So while the cyclist in the OP is not required to have a flag... for his own safety, he probably should. This BTW is one reason I don't ride a bent... too low to be seen and too low to see over traffic. I have long considered acquiring a 'bent, but just don't like the visibility factors. Now is this all ticketable... I doubt it. This of course is JMHO.
05-10-12, 03:17 AM
#132
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Let's try this one last time:
Okay; first of all, in order to be street legal vehicle in FL, a bicycle must be human powered. Of course. That right there eliminates the pocket bikes and mini scooters.
It may have a helper motor as long as that motor is not powerful to drive the bicycle to more than 20 mph on level ground. A helper motor with more power than that and now the bike must be registered, insured, etc., etc., as a motor vehicle. Good luck with that. But I have heard of it being done.
It must have two wheels, but may have up to three wheels. That eliminates unicycles and four wheeled pedal cars, the trike is okay. So far.
The term (bicycle) does not include such a vehicle with a seat height of no more than 25 inches from the ground when the seat is adjusted to its highest position. This is where 'bents like the one pictured in the article run into trouble. The wording in this sentence in the actual definition above says nothing about any kind of motor vehicles; not mini scooters, not pocket bikes, not cars that sit low to the ground, etc. It also says nothing specifying motorized bicycles. It simply says that in order to be a street legal vehicle, the seat of a bicycle must be at least 25" from the ground when adjusted to it's highest point.
That's not my opinion. That's the way I read the law. My opinion is that any kind of bicycle like device, regardless of the number of wheels or seat height should be street legal everywhere and on all roads, streets and highways; but I don't write legislation.
Incidentally, while the law does not specify that a bicycle must have a seat; because of the seat height requirement, bicycles without a seat, such as trials bikes, are not street legal either.
Now, I have never, ever, heard of this law being enforced; and I have seen 'bents being ridden in the presence of law enforcement officers. So if I had such a 'bent, would I worry about it? Not one little bit. I would ride the daylights out of it.
And I do sincerely apologize for being a smart-adze on this thread yesterday. I could try to blame it on the cold longnecks; but that would be a copout to my responsibility.
Okay; first of all, in order to be street legal vehicle in FL, a bicycle must be human powered. Of course. That right there eliminates the pocket bikes and mini scooters.
It may have a helper motor as long as that motor is not powerful to drive the bicycle to more than 20 mph on level ground. A helper motor with more power than that and now the bike must be registered, insured, etc., etc., as a motor vehicle. Good luck with that. But I have heard of it being done.
It must have two wheels, but may have up to three wheels. That eliminates unicycles and four wheeled pedal cars, the trike is okay. So far.
The term (bicycle) does not include such a vehicle with a seat height of no more than 25 inches from the ground when the seat is adjusted to its highest position. This is where 'bents like the one pictured in the article run into trouble. The wording in this sentence in the actual definition above says nothing about any kind of motor vehicles; not mini scooters, not pocket bikes, not cars that sit low to the ground, etc. It also says nothing specifying motorized bicycles. It simply says that in order to be a street legal vehicle, the seat of a bicycle must be at least 25" from the ground when adjusted to it's highest point.
That's not my opinion. That's the way I read the law. My opinion is that any kind of bicycle like device, regardless of the number of wheels or seat height should be street legal everywhere and on all roads, streets and highways; but I don't write legislation.
Incidentally, while the law does not specify that a bicycle must have a seat; because of the seat height requirement, bicycles without a seat, such as trials bikes, are not street legal either.
Now, I have never, ever, heard of this law being enforced; and I have seen 'bents being ridden in the presence of law enforcement officers. So if I had such a 'bent, would I worry about it? Not one little bit. I would ride the daylights out of it.
And I do sincerely apologize for being a smart-adze on this thread yesterday. I could try to blame it on the cold longnecks; but that would be a copout to my responsibility.
Also as has been noted that if they weren't street legal don't you think as has been asked already that there'd be a warning with them when they're sold (as there is with other toy devices) that they're not legal on the road?
05-10-12, 08:59 AM
#133
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It also helps if you don't blow off court dates. Judges absolutely HATE when people show disrespect for the court by blowing off court dates. There's probably no faster way to get on the losing track...
Chipseal did not prepare and I do not think he has the personality for court.
My experience has been that 'most' judges will be fair in a pro se (defending ones self) case, as long as respect is shown to the court. Show up in coat and tie, be prepared, do not interrupt the judge and allow the cocky lawyer (who ASSumes he will win against a layman) screw himself.
My experience has been that 'most' judges will be fair in a pro se (defending ones self) case, as long as respect is shown to the court. Show up in coat and tie, be prepared, do not interrupt the judge and allow the cocky lawyer (who ASSumes he will win against a layman) screw himself.
Last edited by iconicflux; 05-10-12 at 10:00 AM.
05-10-12, 10:03 AM
#134
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I think that you're reading it wrong. It says "no MORE than 25"" as in no HIGHER than 25", not "no LESS than 25", or no LOWER than 25"." Also I called a store that I know deals in 'bents both two wheeled and trikes, and they hadn't heard anything about 'bents NOT being street legal.
05-10-12, 10:04 AM
#135
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Last week I passed a low-slung trike while I was driving, and I'm certain I didn't notice it as early as I would have noticed a regular bicycle. And when I did notice it...it took me a while to figure out wtf it was. So for me at least, while I saw it, I didn't see it in the same way I'd see a bicycle.
If I rode one I'd want to find some way to increase my visibility to motorists. I'm not sure i'd put a flag on it, but I might. At the very least I would run a tail light and put something very brightly colored (and large like a big patch of yellow or orange cloth) on the back of the seat.
I'm in no way condoning the actions of the LEO.
If I rode one I'd want to find some way to increase my visibility to motorists. I'm not sure i'd put a flag on it, but I might. At the very least I would run a tail light and put something very brightly colored (and large like a big patch of yellow or orange cloth) on the back of the seat.
I'm in no way condoning the actions of the LEO.
05-10-12, 10:22 AM
#136
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If I'm right, then he probably had legitimate uses for any money donated for his defence. But don't rely on my memory.
05-10-12, 10:38 AM
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How would that affect the "frankenbikes" that are two frames welded together so that the rider is several feet off of the ground? Or a good old fashioned penny farthing bike?
05-10-12, 11:10 AM
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It can be higher and still be a bike, but lower seats are not bikes. That's how it reads to me anyway. That is an extremely poorly written paragraph with double negatives and ambiguous conjunctions, which I wouldn't trust in court. If it's confusing, contradictory or ambiguous the judges try to divine the intent of the men who wrote it, and who knows where that would lead.
05-10-12, 03:29 PM
#139
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I'd be worth becoming a federal agent just so I could tell the city cop to stuff himself when they go on a power trip. Seattle PD is particularly bad. What with them beating people, and putting a bystander in a coma, and arresting a guy just because he mouthed off, etc etc....
05-10-12, 04:33 PM
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Seat height (in Florida) refers to a motorized bicycl and not a regular bicycle, at least in my eyes..
I know there will be some of you to disagree with me, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I know there will be some of you to disagree with me, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
05-10-12, 04:40 PM
#141
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The above is fairly typical cop behavior.
Heck in NOLA it would be an IMPROVEMENT.
You never want to mouth off- or stand up to them-stupid armed corrupt criminal thugs.
I'm amazed at how brave you guys suggest we act with cops.
Your cops must be a bit different than ours.
Heck in NOLA it would be an IMPROVEMENT.
You never want to mouth off- or stand up to them-stupid armed corrupt criminal thugs.
I'm amazed at how brave you guys suggest we act with cops.
Your cops must be a bit different than ours.
05-10-12, 05:04 PM
#142
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A little more insight might help you.
The LT cop called all his buddies to the scene because he was getting ready to arrest the cyclist using a full on body slam, face first to the ground, just to teach the cyclist a lesson of jack booted justice. Having his attorney wife show up with camera is what put a quick end to that idea.
The cyclist handled the situation well.
For you and others who would just bend over and take it, with this cop you had better be ready to keep bending over and taking it, over and over again.
If the judge is even remotely honest, it will be the cop taking it in the court room.
The LT cop called all his buddies to the scene because he was getting ready to arrest the cyclist using a full on body slam, face first to the ground, just to teach the cyclist a lesson of jack booted justice. Having his attorney wife show up with camera is what put a quick end to that idea.
The cyclist handled the situation well.
For you and others who would just bend over and take it, with this cop you had better be ready to keep bending over and taking it, over and over again.
If the judge is even remotely honest, it will be the cop taking it in the court room.
05-10-12, 05:37 PM
#143
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I don't consider entering into the encounter with a cooperative spirit to be tantamount to bending over and taking it. That cooperative spirit has served me quite well in my limited encounters with enforcement. For some odd reason those who have an anti-authority disposition seem to have more LE encounters, need to assert their rights more and end up experiencing more problems.
I have been stopped a couple of times by LEOs... both intent on writing me tickets, and both decided not to, after a bit of conversation. The conversations were not confrontational in either case... although the second LEO started out with "Ever got a ticket in Arizona, son... 'cause you are about to get one..."
I have no doubt that there are LEOs out there that might be in a less than "cooperative spirit." Just hasn't happened to me.
05-10-12, 06:26 PM
#144
Cycle Year Round
Well, my memory of the case(s) may need refreshing, but I seem to recall more than one court case. I think he represented himself the first time, and then had a lawyer the second time (but still lost.)
If I'm right, then he probably had legitimate uses for any money donated for his defence. But don't rely on my memory.
If I'm right, then he probably had legitimate uses for any money donated for his defence. But don't rely on my memory.
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05-10-12, 06:37 PM
#145
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I don't consider entering into the encounter with a cooperative spirit to be tantamount to bending over and taking it. That cooperative spirit has served me quite well in my limited encounters with enforcement. For some odd reason those who have an anti-authority disposition seem to have more LE encounters, need to assert their rights more and end up experiencing more problems.
Others have said, do not argue (meaning just always agree with whatever cop says). That may get you out of a ticket first time, but as others have noted, you will pay a bigger price next time (unless you let the cops ungrounded demands run your life).
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05-10-12, 06:56 PM
#146
Cycle Year Round
Most of them went like this:
Initial law -
(2) BICYCLE.—Every vehicle propelled solely by human power upon which any person may ride, having two tandem wheels.
Revised to include adult trikes and work bikes -
(2) BICYCLE.—Every vehicle propelled solely by human power upon which any person may ride, having two tandem wheels, and including any device generally recognized as a bicycle though equipped with two front or two rear wheels.
Revised to include motorized bikes -
(2) BICYCLE.—Every vehicle propelled solely by human power, and every motorized bicycle propelled by a combination of human power and an electric helper motor capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of not more than 20 miles per hour on level ground upon which any person may ride, having two tandem wheels, and including any device generally recognized as a bicycle though equipped with two front or two rear wheels. No person under the age of 16 may operate or ride upon a motorized bicycle.
Revised to makes sure miniature motorcycles are not included as a bicycle and thus become street legal -
(2) BICYCLE.—Every vehicle propelled solely by human power, and every motorized bicycle propelled by a combination of human power and an electric helper motor capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of not more than 20 miles per hour on level ground upon which any person may ride, having two tandem wheels, and including any device generally recognized as a bicycle though equipped with two front or two rear wheels. The term does not include such a vehicle with a seat height of no more than 25 inches from the ground when the seat is adjusted to its highest position or a scooter or similar device. No person under the age of 16 may operate or ride upon a motorized bicycle.
Of note, the Florida Judge on the forum agrees with SpecialX’s interpretation.
But even more important, so do I.
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Last edited by CB HI; 05-10-12 at 07:00 PM.
05-11-12, 12:53 PM
#147
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I don't consider entering into the encounter with a cooperative spirit to be tantamount to bending over and taking it. That cooperative spirit has served me quite well in my limited encounters with enforcement. For some odd reason those who have an anti-authority disposition seem to have more LE encounters, need to assert their rights more and end up experiencing more problems.
IF he was checking the OP's ID then why call in backup other than to "flex" his muscles?
05-11-12, 05:08 PM
#148
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Not arguing does not mean agreeing. Sometime you'll need to stand mute and not say anything.
05-11-12, 05:53 PM
#150
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Well, the facts as posted by the OP suggest that bringing wifey into the scene deescalated it. And when the three other cop cars show up is exactly when you want your attorney there.