Bicycle Mechanics - Denatured Alcohol vs Methyl Hydrate

So I went down to the local hardware store to pick up some denatured alcohol to clean up my disc brakes.

Unfortunatly, they did not carry it (as three other stores did not carry it also). However, they did all carry Methyl Hydrate and all said it is the equivalent.

I can't find info on the web about a comparison of the two. Would just like to know if the Methyl Hydrate is an acceptable replacement for denatured alcohol?

By the way, I live in Ontario Canada so I'm not sure if laws apply for selling denatured alcohol (maybe LCBO or pharmacies carry it)?!

I have never been to a grocery store/pharmacy that does not sell denatured alcohol. Try a local grocery store

I thought the same about hardware stores but was wrong. Definitely won't find it in any grocery stores around here, I think I will try the pharmacy.

Us cyclists aren't the only ones wondering if denatured alcohol = methyl hydrate, wood workers are asking the same, see the Dec 18, 2004 post:

http://www.workshopbuzz.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=16756&sid=0afe789d3a34b2376e7fad5463fb703f

Why not use isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol as recommended by Hayes?

Methyl Hydrate is the base of some kinds of Denatured Alcohol so yes it's totally fine to use it

Why not use isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol as recommended by Hayes?
Because Isopropyl Alcohol is commonly sold watered down, and I'd rather buy more go than no. It will work but Denatured works better

Methyl Hydrate is the base of most kinds of Denatured Alcohol so yes it's totally fine to use it

Because Isopropyl Alcohol is commonly sold watered down, and I'd rather buy more go than no. It will work but Denatured works better

The woodworking thread tends to agree with you.

Methyl Hydrate is a stupid synonym for Methanol, aka Methyl Alcohol. Why use an archaic term? I don't know. I just don't know. But its the same stuff.

Denatured alcohol is Ethanol that has been made poisonous (denatured) through the addition of various adulterants. Methanol (aka Methyl Hydrate) is the most common, but you may also see gasoline, methyl ethyl ketone, ethyl acetate, butyl acetate, and others.

Methanol, like ethanol, will evaporate completely, making it a good cleaner for that sort of thing. However, it is also fairly toxic, so go easy on it, and wear gloves please.

peace,
sam

Denatured alcohol is Ethanol that has been made poisonous (denatured) through the addition of various adulterants. Methanol (aka Methyl Hydrate) is the most common, but you may also see gasoline, methyl ethyl ketone, ethyl acetate, butyl acetate, and others.

It's common in Canada for CDA (Completely Denatured Alcohol) to have the Methanol base.
Denatured alcohol, in the US is ethyl alcohol adulterated with methyl to make it toxic to drink (usually 10 to 15%)
The can I have in the garage is Ethanol and has all the nice chemicals in it other than gasoline

Great, thanks for all the replies! Can't wait to clean my rotors now!

You might try a paint store. Alcohol is used as a thinner for shellac, so many paint stores carry it.

Methyl Hydrate is the base of most kinds of Denatured Alcohol so yes it's totally fine to use it

Because Isopropyl Alcohol is commonly sold watered down, and I'd rather buy more go than no. It will work but Denatured works better

Nope. Thank you for playing. Methyl hydrate is also known as methanol, methyl alcohol or wood alcohol. Denatured alcohol is almost pure ethanol, also known as ethyl alcohol, plain alcohol, grain alcohol, moonshine or sippin' whiskey. Stuff is added to ethanol to make it either distasteful or poisonous to make it denatured. Sometimes, and there are dozens of ways to denature ethanol, methanol is added to ethanol. This makes it poisonous. Methanol is highly poisonous and is rather readily absorbed through the skin while ethanol is only moderately poisonous and not as easily absorbed. Consuming methanol will lead to blindness, convulsions and death at a fairly low level of consumption. Methanol is also more flammable than ethanol. It is therefore not a good substitute for denatured alcohol.

Chemically methanol has 1 carbon, ethanol has 2 carbons and isopopyl alcohol has 3 carbons. Flammability goes down with increasing carbon content because volatility also goes down with increasing carbon content.

More than you wanted to know, I'm sure but forewarned is forearmed.

Denatured alcohol is almost pure ethanol, also known as ethyl alcohol, plain alcohol, grain alcohol, moonshine or sippin' whiskey. Stuff is added to ethanol to make it either distasteful or poisonous to make it denatured.

Unfortunately, this is rarely the case. Most 'denatured alcohol' you see in US hardware and paint stores comes from a company called Klean Strip, who 'denatures' their ethanol with 55% methanol. I know denatured alcohol is 'supposed' to be nearly 100% ethanol, with just a few percent of something else, but since methanol can be reformed from natural gas, where ethanol has to be a fermentation byproduct, it is much cheaper to make it mostly methanol. If you have other sources, you can always contact the manufacturer (or check their website) for an MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) that will show, in detail, what the chemical blend is. All companies are required by law to provide MSDSs to their customers.

Methanol is highly toxic, like mentioned, but ironically, exposure to ethanol can limit the poisonous effects of methanol. Methanol is metabolized by your alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme into formaldehyde, which is terribly toxic stuff (of course), and really the bad part about methanol. However, if you consume ethanol, your body will work on the ethanol before beginning to work on the methanol, which can give your kidneys time to remove the methanol and pee it out before you actually metabolize it. Really truly wicked hangovers (the kind with the splitting headache) are usually caused by methanol poisoning, since bourbon, red wine and brandy all contain high levels of methanol as side fermentation products that aren't removed through filtration, and may be concentrated through non-fractional distillation (ol' fashin' pot stillin'). You don't feel the effects during the night, but if you get enough methanol in you, your body will begin to metabolize it come morning, and you begin to feel the toxic effects. Interestingly, this means that the 'hair of the dog that bit you' cure for a hangover actually has some merit, a shot of liqour in the morning can get some ethanol in your system, and 'distract' the alcohol dehydrogenase enzymes long enough for your body to expel the unmetabolized methanol. I recommend vodka, since it has the lowest methanol content of any of the spirits, due to how it is made.

Oh man, did I just write that much about methanol? I don't think cyccommute and I should be allowed into the same thread anymore. ;)

peace,
sam

Unfortunately, this is rarely the case. Most 'denatured alcohol' you see in US hardware and paint stores comes from a company called Klean Strip, who 'denatures' their ethanol with 55% methanol. I know denatured alcohol is 'supposed' to be nearly 100% ethanol, with just a few percent of something else, but since methanol can be reformed from natural gas, where ethanol has to be a fermentation byproduct, it is much cheaper to make it mostly methanol. If you have other sources, you can always contact the manufacturer (or check their website) for an MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) that will show, in detail, what the chemical blend is. All companies are required by law to provide MSDSs to their customers.

sam

Depends on where you buy it. The big box stores sell Kleen-strip which now has a formula that is 80% methanol, the rest is ethanol and other stuff. (Should really be called methanol in that case.) Parks Corp sells to smaller places like True Value and Ace and their formula is mostly ethanol with 1% toluene and benzene added. Either way, it's a good idea to wear gloves and work with it outside and in small amounts.

Methanol is highly poisonous and is rather readily absorbed through the skin while ethanol is only moderately poisonous and not as easily absorbed. Consuming methanol will lead to blindness, convulsions and death at a fairly low level of consumption. Methanol is also more flammable than ethanol. It is therefore not a good substitute for denatured alcohol.
...

More than you wanted to know, I'm sure but forewarned is forearmed.



Ah, so nice to have someone to save us from our stupid selves. How many accidents by intrepid BF DIYers will you prevent, cyccommute?

Thanks for more valuable info, you and all the other chemists aboard.

Because Isopropyl Alcohol is commonly sold watered down, and I'd rather buy more go than no. It will work but Denatured works better

In Canada at least, "pure" isopropanol is available in drug stores at the pharmacist counter (but not on the shelves).

Nope. Thank you for playing. Methyl hydrate is also known as methanol, methyl alcohol or wood alcohol. Denatured alcohol is almost pure ethanol, also known as ethyl alcohol, plain alcohol, grain alcohol, moonshine or sippin' whiskey.

Klean Strip, who 'denatures' their ethanol with 55% methanol. I know denatured alcohol is 'supposed' to be nearly 100% ethanol, with just a few percent of something else, but since methanol can be reformed from natural gas, where ethanol has to be a fermentation byproduct, it is much cheaper to make it mostly methanol.


Depends on where you buy it. The big box stores sell Kleen-strip which now has a formula that is 80% methanol,:lol:
Beyond the chemistry it's FINE to use it. Wear your gloves!

Dang, there's a whole lot of trivia I'll impress people with at my next cocktail party!

Actually, I tried the methyl hydrate this afternoon and took her for a spin, works like a charm.

When do you guys find time to ride?

When do you guys find time to ride?

Before and after work, where I'm paid to think about that kind of stuff all day. ;)

peace,
sam

P.S. Sometimes I think about that sort of stuff WHILE I ride, but don't tell my riding partners, or they'll realize I'm not listening to them. ;)

In Canada at least, "pure" isopropanol is available in drug stores at the pharmacist counter (but not on the shelves).




Why? :eek:

Why would anyone ever want to drink ?knowing you are ingesting a poison.

Why would anyone ever want to drink ?knowing you are ingesting a poison.

Ethanol isn't really a poison. The methanol in some alcoholic products is a bit of an accident. Of course, people knowingly ingest poisons all the time. Artificial sweetners and colorings, pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, chemical fertilizers, and more, all on the food you eat, and in the beverages you drink. Even your water has things in it that are typically thought of as poisonous, like flouride and chloramine.

Everyone consumes poison, you just get to pick your poison. Thats what great about our world. Choose your own ending. ;)

peace,
sam

When do you guys find time to ride?

I ride when I'm not tied to a stupid machine that makes me take readings every 2 minutes. When I am tied to the stupid machine, you have to do something to pass the time.

Ethanol isn't really a poison. The methanol in some alcoholic products is a bit of an accident. Of course, people knowingly ingest poisons all the time. Artificial sweetners and colorings, pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, chemical fertilizers, and more, all on the food you eat, and in the beverages you drink. Even your water has things in it that are typically thought of as poisonous, like flouride and chloramine.

Everyone consumes poison, you just get to pick your poison. Thats what great about our world. Choose your own ending. ;)

peace,
sam

Ethanol is a poison. It's just slower than methanol. Ingest too much of it over a short time span and it causes respiratory arrest. Colorado has had at several deaths in the last year die this way.

:lol:
Beyond the chemistry it's FINE to use it. Wear your gloves!

It's all about the chemistry. Given what I know, as a chemist, about methanol, I would not use it personally. Methanol is highly toxic and easily absorbed through the skin. Used by someone who has no knowledge of what it is or how dangerous it is, it could cause a great deal of harm especially if they don't take proper precautions.

So, no, it's not FINE to use. It may work but you should be knowledgable about what you are using and how to use it as with any solvent.

Before and after work, where I'm paid to think about that kind of stuff all day. ;)

peace,
sam

P.S. Sometimes I think about that sort of stuff WHILE I ride, but don't tell my riding partners, or they'll realize I'm not listening to them. ;)

If you ride alone, you don't have to worry about what your ride partners think. At least not what the real ones think ;)

Ethanol is a poison. It's just slower than methanol. Ingest too much of it over a short time span and it causes respiratory arrest. Colorado has had at several deaths in the last year die this way.

Interestingly, table salt (NaCl) has an LD50 (dose at which 50% of those tested will die) of 3000mg / kilogram of body weight, while ethanol has an LD50 of 7060mg/kg, making salt about twice as toxic as ethanol. The poison, they say, is in the dose.

Ethanols problem isn't that it is toxic, it is that something about it inspires people to consume far too much of it, far too fast (quite a problem recently in my native town of Ft. Collins, as you mentioned). If salt made you feel like booze does, we'd be seeing a lot more deaths from it. Actually, there are very few 'non-food' chemicals that wouldn't injure or kill us if consumed with the fervor of ethanol.

Anyway, at some point its just a metaphysical debate about what constitutes 'poison', but in general you are right, ethanol isn't perfectly safe.

I use large quantities of methanol in the production of biodiesel (we buy in 55 gallon drums), and I'm comfortable with its use. We always work with it outdoors, or in poweffully ventilated garages, we use sealed reactors that limit vapor escape, and we always wear neoprene gloves while using it. Interestingly methanol goes through latex like it was tissue paper, so latex gloves don't help. Also interestingly, methanol passes right through most respirators, even those meant for solvents. You need a delivered air system for safe exposure to methanol vapors. We don't use any air system, and keep ourselves safe by limited vapor production in the first place. No one in our group has ever experienced a symptom that we attributed to methanol exposure, though a fellow in another group (who was using a highly non-recommended open top reactor) peered into his reactor, accidentally breathed in, got a big hit of methanol, and proceeded to have a pretty miserable few days. He's ok, but it was a close call.

Anyway, I suppose my point is that methanol is OK to use, as long as you keep its effects in consideration. Use gloves, use it outside, don't get it on your skin, and don't breath the fumes. There are safer cleaners available, so I'd only use methanol if its the only thing I had lying around.

peace,
sam

I'm sure you could find many chemists that would say its (MeOH) not really that dangerous (myself included). And yes everything is poison in excess. Even water has a lethal dose.

I'm sure you could find many chemists that would say its (MeOH) not really that dangerous (myself included). And yes everything is poison in excess. Even water has a lethal dose.

In a lab environment, using the proper precautions, I would agree that methanol isn't that dangerous nor as toxic as other things I could mention. I've used it in largeish quanitities in heated sealed reactors and don't have a problem with it. But I also have it in a hood under conditions that limit my exposure if something goes wrong and I wear personal protective equipment when I handle it. Plus I have 25 year experience dealing with it and other chemicals. Most home consumers don't have any experience dealing with it nor do they have any knowledge of the hazards of the compound itself. That's why this forum is so useful. We who do have knowledge of the material can impart our wisdom to those who don't.

As I've said before, if you have to use it, use it in the smallest quantity that you can, use it with proper ventilation, use gloves and be aware of the hazards. And, if you possibly can, find some "real" denatured ethanol, not the high methanol mixtures.

Enthalpic, I agree with cyccommute: why advise people who don't have a lot of experience with chemicals or lab safety that it's okay to use something that obviously requires a lot of care in handling, especially when there are safer alternatives?

Question for all of youse chemist types. After use of these chemicals, are there proper and improper disposal techniques? If so, I'm sure that the OP might want to know them. Oddly, little details like this aren't always readily available.

Small quantities of methanol can actually go right into the sewer system. I know it sounds odd, but methanol is destroyed pretty quickly by microbial digestion. It may be different in different areas, but that is what I was told by water treatment people here in St. Louis, when we were asking about the effects of small quantities of methanol getting into the sewer system as a byproduct of biodiesel production. They said, "If its less than a liter at a time, its no problem." You just don't want to overload the system.

peace,
sam

Because Isopropyl Alcohol is commonly sold watered down, and I'd rather buy more go than no. It will work but Denatured works better

The drug stores around here carry two strengths of rubbing alcohol. The highest strength is normally 91%. Still strong enough to use for cleaning.

Methanol is highly toxic, like mentioned, but ironically, exposure to ethanol can limit the poisonous effects of methanol. Methanol is metabolized by your alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme into formaldehyde, which is terribly toxic stuff (of course), and really the bad part about methanol. However, if you consume ethanol, your body will work on the ethanol before beginning to work on the methanol, which can give your kidneys time to remove the methanol and pee it out before you actually metabolize it. Really truly wicked hangovers (the kind with the splitting headache) are usually caused by methanol poisoning, since bourbon, red wine and brandy all contain high levels of methanol as side fermentation products that aren't removed through filtration, and may be concentrated through non-fractional distillation (ol' fashin' pot stillin'). You don't feel the effects during the night, but if you get enough methanol in you, your body will begin to metabolize it come morning, and you begin to feel the toxic effects. Interestingly, this means that the 'hair of the dog that bit you' cure for a hangover actually has some merit, a shot of liqour in the morning can get some ethanol in your system, and 'distract' the alcohol dehydrogenase enzymes long enough for your body to expel the unmetabolized methanol. I recommend vodka, since it has the lowest methanol content of any of the spirits, due to how it is made.


sam




Forgot to mention before that there are quite a few of us out there without this valuable little enzyme. What happens then?

Forgot to mention before that there are quite a few of us out there without this valuable little enzyme. What happens then?

Well.. I know there are three expressions of the alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme gene, fast, medium, and slow, as they are called.. People with the 'slow' expression increase their risk of heart disease when they consume alcohol, while people with fast and medium expressions decrease their risk of heart disease with moderate consumption of alcohol. How this relates to methanol toxicity I don't know. Alcohol processing is a system, more than just a single enzyme, so its likely that it would still be toxic, and its likely that ethanol would still depress that systems ability to handle methanol simultaneously. However, thats just a guess. I wouldn't take your enzymatic status to mean you are invulnerable to methanol, however. ;)

peace,
sam

Heh heh. Actually the opposite. I was concerned that my reactivity to alcohol would make me more vulnerable to everything that the alcohol processing system, as you referred to it, is vulnerable too. I'm thinking in particular of the 'worst hangovers' liquors you described above.

Scary.. i used to clean stuff all the time with methyl hydrate, getting it all over my hands. I just assumed "it's alcohol - it's fine"..

eek!

The drug stores around here carry two strengths of rubbing alcohol. The highest strength is normally 91%. Still strong enough to use for cleaning.
Same here, but I still prefer Denatured as I'm not paying for water in my alcohol and it also keeps it from disappearing into the first aid kit or something

If your in Australia and looking for some. Don't ask for Dentured Alcohol, ask for Methylated Spirts. Its the exact same, they just call it different down under.