Lacing - Front Radial - Head in or Out ?
#1
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ffld Cnty Connecticut
Posts: 21,843
Bikes: Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1173 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times
in
612 Posts
Lacing - Front Radial - Head in or Out ?
I just built a front radial wheel, 50 mm carbon tubular, 18 spokes. For some reason (better bracing angle ?) I built it with the heads in/elbow out, but am now second guessing it. Looks like the nipples are angled a bit more than ideal in the spoke hole. Elbow in would give a little straighter angle for the nipple. I'm contemplating undoing each spoke 1 at a time and switching them. Is it just a theoretical advantage 1 way or the other ?
__________________
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike.
FYI: https://www.bikeforums.net/forum-sugg...ad-please.html
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike.
FYI: https://www.bikeforums.net/forum-sugg...ad-please.html
#2
Banned
You pick... I only have radial spokes on my Brompton front wheel, they are head out
to have more clearance , between the fork tips, which are already Narrow.
74mm wide hub, 349 16" wheel.. 28 spokes..
to have more clearance , between the fork tips, which are already Narrow.
74mm wide hub, 349 16" wheel.. 28 spokes..
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,688
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1074 Post(s)
Liked 295 Times
in
222 Posts
Heads-in does give an easily measurable laterally stiffer wheel - which isn't much use to you unless you think your current wheel is too floppy.
Heads-out gives a nice aestethic effect, particularly if there's a colour difference between the spokes and the hub. And supposedly better aero.
Heads-out gives a nice aestethic effect, particularly if there's a colour difference between the spokes and the hub. And supposedly better aero.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,724
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5791 Post(s)
Liked 2,581 Times
in
1,431 Posts
Lacing radial is one of those jobs that requires the use of a quarter.
Toss the quarter to decide, heads in or out. Like you did, I build all my radials elbows out to maximize bracing angle. Many (most?) builders builders build them elbows in to reduce the aero profile.
The reality is that it barely (if at all) makes a difference either way, so no sweat. Yes, the elbows might need to be set to correct the angle at the hub, but this is no different that what happens witn many tangential patterns so that doesn't matter either.
Don't bother. This wheel will probably outlast you anyway. In any case the spoke will take a set where it leaves the nipple, and isn't likely to fail there. Misaligned nipples are a more serious issue when there's lots of spoke twist during the build, which works the bend back and forth.
Toss the quarter to decide, heads in or out. Like you did, I build all my radials elbows out to maximize bracing angle. Many (most?) builders builders build them elbows in to reduce the aero profile.
The reality is that it barely (if at all) makes a difference either way, so no sweat. Yes, the elbows might need to be set to correct the angle at the hub, but this is no different that what happens witn many tangential patterns so that doesn't matter either.
Don't bother. This wheel will probably outlast you anyway. In any case the spoke will take a set where it leaves the nipple, and isn't likely to fail there. Misaligned nipples are a more serious issue when there's lots of spoke twist during the build, which works the bend back and forth.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
Last edited by FBinNY; 07-04-13 at 03:10 PM.
#6
-
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 3,504
Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 145 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 35 Times
in
30 Posts
Heads-out minimizes aesthetics damage should you decide later to change to a crossed interlaced lacing...
Also, often times going heads out results in unsupported elbows - mostly with cheaper spokes - resolved using spoke head washers...
Head-inside as already noted provide sightly better bracing...
=8-)
Also, often times going heads out results in unsupported elbows - mostly with cheaper spokes - resolved using spoke head washers...
Head-inside as already noted provide sightly better bracing...
=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
#8
Insane Bicycle Mechanic
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: other Vancouver
Posts: 9,842
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 808 Post(s)
Liked 711 Times
in
379 Posts
I just built a front radial wheel, 50 mm carbon tubular, 18 spokes. For some reason (better bracing angle ?) I built it with the heads in/elbow out, but am now second guessing it. Looks like the nipples are angled a bit more than ideal in the spoke hole. Elbow in would give a little straighter angle for the nipple. I'm contemplating undoing each spoke 1 at a time and switching them. Is it just a theoretical advantage 1 way or the other ?
You could start over with new spokes and lace 1/3 of the wheel head-in and 2/3 head-out. You could tell everyone that Sheldon Brown told you to do this at a seance.
__________________
Jeff Wills
Comcast nuked my web page. It will return soon..
Jeff Wills
Comcast nuked my web page. It will return soon..
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,724
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5791 Post(s)
Liked 2,581 Times
in
1,431 Posts
A friend laced a radial wheel alternating heads in and out on general principles. Whenever anyone asked he'd explain that ALL wheels are laced alternating heads in and out, and radials aren't an exception. Some even bought it.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
TheNeed4Speed
Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg)
47
05-26-14 09:03 PM
darrenw1
Bicycle Mechanics
10
05-09-12 03:08 AM