mikemowbz

Quick question for those of you knowledgeable about these things:

Looking to port over a 1987 105 Groupset onto a nice Italian frame to build up a bike for my girlfriend. Most of this is pretty straightforward: I'll probably have to switch up the headset (105 from that era is JIS, I think - correct me if I'm wrong), likely for a Velo Orange ISO one, I've got to add a couple of 2mm spacers the 126mm rear wheel as the new frame has been spaced out to 130, and I'll need to switch the FD as this one takes a braze-on (I've got a 1986 Shimano 600 lined up). Shifters, RD, original cassette & crankset should let me keep up the six-speed indexing on the new bike.

Of course, I'll need a new BB w/Italian threads, and the 70mm width instead of 68. I believe that the 105 double crankset would normally go on a 113mm spindle with the standard 68mm BSA BB. I'm wondering if, given the wider shell width, it would be best to go with a 115mm spindle in my case? I've seen mention of the spindle length on early 1990s 'Italian' shimano BBs being 115 instead of 113, which is partly why I think this might be the way to go. Oh, and I'll be using a Shimano or Velo Orange Italian BB w/ JIS taper, so things should sit where they're supposed to on the spindle. Thoughts?

RobbieTunes

First thing that stood out to me was that you're going to need a longer rear axle plus the spacers.
Still, cheap and easy to do.

I'm not familiar with the headset issue, so I can't address that. I'd double-check the bosses for the DT shifters, they could be different.

I really don't think there is an issue on the BB. The BB should push you out far enough to clear the chainstay. Others here may know that specifically, but I've put several Italian BB's on non-Italian, Japanese frames, and I simply put in the BB and moved on, never had a problem with the chain rings. I'm of the opinion that BB spindle may be 113, but that's as much about the crank arm design as it is about the bb shell width. Some Italian cranksets that use a 115mm spindle are simply a bit more concave than those that may use a 113 or 111.

Gut instinct, you'll be fine as is.

repechage

105 in the 126 mm spacing era will not need more dimension if it is an Italian bottom bracket from the same era. The difference in spacing will effect the placement of the bearings on the spindle, but when they design the Italian stuff they (any mfg.) takes that into account, for that group's design.

Respacing to 130 is not making a difference to the centerline of the bike if adding 2 mm to each side, or where the sprockets lie in relation to the bike's centerline... but IS moving the rear derailleur in relation to the sprockets and if indexed the indexing design possibly may be different.
If you placed all 4 mm of spacers you needed on the non drive side, the shifting relationships at the rear will stay the same.. but will require redishing the wheel, but the chainline will be off. To make all things equal then one Would add 2 mm to the bottom bracket spindle on the drive side, most likely.

ultraman6970

87' 105?? the group came with SLR brake levers and stuff, same generation than 600/ultegra tri color (i believe is called in the US)... forgot to mention the darn oval chainrings too.

I do have one of those cranksets and i have it paired to a dura ace 112 italian (in a custom Italian BB frame), for the record I believe the 105 italian is 115 not 113. Either way 112 is kind'a the shorter one u can put with that crankset, you shouldn't have a problem with a 112 or 113. U can find 113 in those generic shimano ones (UN-xxx), be sure is SYMMETRIC tho, the bb used in the crank u want to use must be symmetric.

As for the rear end... u can use the washers (spacers) or not, It depends, IMO the bike should be ok using it w/o anything, just stick the 126 wheel in there. The bad thing could happen if you put the spacers or washers is that could run short of axle threads in the dropouts. Hard to tell but always u can swap the axle for a longer one, I have done it and the axle for that hub (105 sc) is available everywhere, if u add the same ammount of spacers at both sides u wont be required to re-dish ever. Obviously dont put the spacers at one side of the axle only... duh!

The headset... well u mentioned iso and jis.. well it depends... did you measure the head tube ID and the crown race area in the fork? Before jumping to conclusions because the frame is italian u have to do that, measure. Secondly shimano did ISO headsets, i had 2 of those in the past. In a matter of fact in ebay u can find one or two of those shimano ISO headsets. If the frame has a headset dont swap it, just keep the headset even if doesnt match. Never been friend of playing "take the headset in and out 20 times per year as some people does, it harms the frame and fork)

The 105 u have is ISO or JIS?? back in 1984 I bought one of those groupsets u have in Japan and the headset was ISO not JIS, so pretty much u have to measure twice and buy only once. Hard to tell from what are u saying man. Measure.

Good luck and post a picture of the bike to know what bike are u talking about.

mikemowbz

Thanks for the responses, Robbie, repechage & ultraman. Helpful input as always.

As far as general stuff goes (headset, rear spacing, etc.): I will definitely measure everything, when I get the frame (which is completely bare, no headset, no BB, etc...and is definitely Italian BB plus had a Campy headset in previously, so ISO or Italian are my options, definitely not JIS). Not yet in my hands, I'm just trying to formulate a plan of action in advance. I'm actually not 100% that the 105 headset from the group I want to switch over is JIS, but I think that would be typical of Shimano 105 for the era (yup, SLR & biopace!), and the frameset it's on is a Tange 2 (my 1985 Nishiki with the same tubeset is JIS). I will confirm this. As ultraman reminds us, 'measure twice, buy once!' Headset is no big deal, I'll put in a new one and leave it at that (if the 105 works, great, and if it's JIS after all, a new Velo Orange one). I will try things out with the 126 wheelset, no spacers first thing, and add spacers if that seems best (and deal with the axle issue if it comes to that)...hadn't though about how that would affect indexing, good point. We'll see.

Sounds like I should be ok with one of the generic (UN-54?) Shimano Italian threaded BB's w/ the JIS taper, 113mm spindle, which is about my cheapest good option for putting those 105 cranks on this Italian frame. The reason I asked about the taper length specifically is that this is one part I will have to buy (likely along with the headset), as I have no Italian-threaded BBs handy (the BB on the Miele is English threaded) - and I definitely don't want to have to buy twice.

The new frame I'm thinking about, by the way, is an Atala (52cm square), deal pending w/Drillium Dude. It's very well photographed on this thread:

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...la-52cm-c-to-c

And the 105 group is to come off this Miele Lupa, decently (not nearly as well) pictured in this thread:

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...le-Lupa-1986-7

That frame is a good candidate for prettier bits somewhere down the line, but the 105 group should serve very well in the meantime, and I think my girlfriend will be very pleased with the bike. Came out of the factory in Italy the year she was born, too...which seems pretty special for a prospective birthday present, eh?

Road Fan

Generally the fitting issues on the drive side are chainstay clearance, chainline, and clearance between the root of the spider and the BB cup. On the non-drive side it's about the same, except I like to balance the Q-factor, so the pedal spacing is the same to the right and to the left.

The only thing here that has to do with the BB width is the clearance between the spider and the BB cup. If it's more than 2 mm on the English installation, it should be only 1 mm tighter on the Italian installation.

ultraman6970

Ok... on the atala... if you got the frame as in the picture with the BB, headset and shift levers, this is what I would do...

Dont remove the headset if still in place, even if tiny pitted, just put a lot of white lithium grease on there just to continue using it and get moisture out. But doubt that headset has problems.

BB... keep it in place and for 30 or 40 bucks u can get a set of campagnolo cranks, but the 105 will fit in there just fine, not the right thing to do but it will work.

The campagnolo shifters... I'm a campy guy and one of the things i changed all the time were the shift levers, specially when shimano came up with its retrofriction system, 1000 times better than campagnolo, suntour cyclone or superbe ones were even better. So the 105 ones will cut the job just fine. If your G/F wants to use the levers in friction mode u can even move outta the wheels u have and go all the way to 8 speeds 130 mm hubs just to play safe. CL is a cheap place to find those wheelsets, hope your g/f figure it out how to use friction and dont complain either (i'm married and ex racer so whining for something that simple is not an option.)

The index will work just fine in 130 or 126 with that bike, as long u set it right. Personally I would use it in friction,

In general lines u can make it work just fine man, yes new parts will do better. The crankset i have is like painted, yours is simply anodized, but pretty much the samething.

Good luck with the built.

If you did not get the BB, headset and **** levers with the frame, just measure twice and buy once