Go slow on the free weights
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Go slow on the free weights
Dear Forum,
made a really dumb mistake, have been training more agressively, and decided
to add a little free weight to the mix...
No Problems till I hit the Squat Sled and thought I am stronger than I was 2 years
ago when I did mostly free weight and jogging
Yes the legs are powerful from cycling but the tendons are now more addept
at cycling and not holding up 400 pounds of free weight, did 20 easy dips and moved on.to quaDS AND CURLES..
the next morning my knee was sore, I must have strained or mildly sprained the meidialtendon of my R leg.CRAAAAAAA____!mY LEG feels like my shoulder after tossing a baseball from the outfield!!!
My guess is the Fibers of the tendon may have been streched too the tearing point..
DUMB DUmb DUMB. Now I limp a little and will have to gently re-hab that tendon, to much actiion could cause more damage, it should heal nicely in a few weeks God willing
The Achmee knee brace in my closet all covered in dust fixed the pain when walking. not sure about cyclmg may just spin for a while/// dumb dumb.....
Never will I do heavy lifting with my legs they are to strong for the supoortive structures of the laterial and medial tendons, not to mention the risk of cartlidge
damage from grinding the patellia into the heads of bones... DUMB DUMB,, I know better but the weights felt great at the time...
So trust me on this Cyclist may not realize how powerfull their legs are till they sprain a
tendon that provides colateral support to the knee a very delicate structure,
not to mention I overlooked the age thing at 61 going on 62...The Medial Coalteral tendon R Leg Interiror notice how delicate the tendons look this type of strain or sprain in football or soccer not free weight.... be warned,,,,,
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...iagram.svg.png
Last edited by djnzlab1; 12-27-11 at 01:08 PM.
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Santa Cruz Mountains
Posts: 6,169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Sorry to hear you got injured. Every time I go to the gym I say to myself "you are a cyclist, not a weight lifter", even though its obvious whenever I look in the mirror. On exercises like leg press where I can move large weights, I gradually work up to heavy weights rather than going for my max right off. If anything hurts, I stop that exercise for the day. When I come back after stopping for a while, I try to be careful not to get carried away.
#3
Climbing Above It All
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Basking in the Sun.
Posts: 4,146
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Squats put so much pressure on the lower back most orthopedic surgeons would say never to do them. Do step-ups instead. Or controlled lunges with a straight back.
#4
Procrastinateur supreme
OP - thank you for the reminder! I hope you heal well. Tendons seem to me like aging plastic - they just get more brittle as we get older, even though we can maintain muscle mass.
#5
Senior Member
I would suspect that most orthopedic surgeons have never done many squats, and have not discovered the tremendous benefits they offer.
The few orthopedic surgeons who work with olympians, bodybuilders, power lifters, and (yes) cyclists, actually recommend them strongly.
Taking it further, there's a lot of evidence that - contrary to popular misconception - when done properly, with good form, and built up slowly, squats and most heavy core exercises such as deadlifts can help rebuild lost bone mass and thinning cartilage.
The problem is the we fifty-plusses tend to think we're still twenty-plusses, so we go at it to hard and too fast. (At least - that's what I do. Causes injuries every time )
Personal - admittedly anecdotal - evidence:
When I first started mountain climbing, at age 52, my knees gave me 5 kinds of hell on the descents. Someone pointed me at the evidence about the value of squats, deads, and other heavy resistance training. I asked my orthopedic specialist about it, and he said it was nonsense. But I got into a carefully planned routine of leg and core buildup exercises anyway. Now? Two months ago I came down one of the world's highest mountain without the slightest twinge in my knees.
Summary:
- Do your squats.
- Do them right
- Build up slowly
- There's no shame in doing a low-weight / high-reps routine
- They, along with deadlifts, will help in almost every aspect of your life.
#6
Senior Member
I would suspect that most orthopedic surgeons have never done many squats, and have not discovered the tremendous benefits they offer.
The few orthopedic surgeons who work with olympians, bodybuilders, power lifters, and (yes) cyclists, actually recommend them strongly.
Taking it further, there's a lot of evidence that - contrary to popular misconception - when done properly, with good form, and built up slowly, squats and most heavy core exercises such as deadlifts can help rebuild lost bone mass and thinning cartilage.
The problem is the we fifty-plusses tend to think we're still twenty-plusses, so we go at it to hard and too fast. (At least - that's what I do. Causes injuries every time )
Personal - admittedly anecdotal - evidence:
When I first started mountain climbing, at age 52, my knees gave me 5 kinds of hell on the descents. Someone pointed me at the evidence about the value of squats, deads, and other heavy resistance training. I asked my orthopedic specialist about it, and he said it was nonsense. But I got into a carefully planned routine of leg and core buildup exercises anyway. Now? Two months ago I came down one of the world's highest mountain without the slightest twinge in my knees.
Summary:
- Do your squats.
- Do them right
- Build up slowly
- There's no shame in doing a low-weight / high-reps routine
- They, along with deadlifts, will help in almost every aspect of your life.
All very much I M (very) H O...
#7
Banned.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 20,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
It is not wise to start out after two years with heavy weights for any exercise. I do several weekly, and I have absolutely no problems, but I have been doing them for 25 years - regularly.
You need to build up the capacity of your tendons, ligament, etc. and supporting muscles over a period of time.
You need to build up the capacity of your tendons, ligament, etc. and supporting muscles over a period of time.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 523
Bikes: 2012 Motobecane (BikesDirect) Immortal Force; 2011 (?) Civia Bryant Gates Carbon Belt Drive (upgraded to Alfine 11 and Gates CenterTrack)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Most orthopedic surgeons are wrong - IMO.
Taking it further, there's a lot of evidence that - contrary to popular misconception - when done properly, with good form, and built up slowly, squats and most heavy core exercises such as deadlifts can help rebuild lost bone mass and thinning cartilage.
Taking it further, there's a lot of evidence that - contrary to popular misconception - when done properly, with good form, and built up slowly, squats and most heavy core exercises such as deadlifts can help rebuild lost bone mass and thinning cartilage.
The real hard core old times were suspicious of most of the weight machines, in the belief that that they sometimes prevented the development of the stabilizer muscles, etc.
One thing to think about is to learn to do squats correctly, and stay off of the squat sled. This is only my opinion, but a watching folks at the gym, it seems like a squat sled seems to offer a lot of mechanical advantage - too much in my ignorant opinion. It seems like there were a lot of guys who could do 750 lbs on the squat sled that I had never seen do much over 300 lbs in a free weight (or Smith machine) squat.
My own wacky theory is the mechanical advantage affects some muscles more than others - so that even though 750 lbs on the squad sled may have felt like 300 lbs in a free weight squat to the quads, it may feel like a lot more to some of the stabilizer muscles.
It seems to me that the weight machines were designed for to help young athletes who want to pack on lot of muscle fast - who would so so without proper form - keep from injuring themselves. But by limiting the axes of motion to prevent injuring in those guys, those machines may people like us - who need help stretching tendons/developing stabilizer muscles - injure ourselves.
I recognize that this is a wacky theory.
I am more focused on yoga when I am not riding right now - for balance, flexibility, and strength. Once I am no longer gaining strength from yoga, I will go back to free weights. My plan at that point:
- Start with very deep squats with a an empty bar - and a very high rep count.
- Add weight very slowly - listening to what my knees tell me each step of the way.
- As I get stronger, I expect to do less reps with more weight.
I have an Ironmaster at home (a kind of Smith machine), but I'd probably rather have a squat cage.
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Medina, OH
Posts: 5,804
Bikes: confidential infromation that I don't even share with my wife
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I agree with others that you don't need to max out the weight stand to do squats. My current routine is a super set that will have my legs quivering at the end. My continuous set goes like this: 15 x 16" box jumps, right to 10 x upside down bocu ball squats, right to 10 squats balancing on two medicine balls, right to failure to 10 reps of squats standing/balancing on a 55 cm stability ball.
That level of effort might not be for everyone but modifying it to an extent will provide a great and effective set that won't kill the knees.
That level of effort might not be for everyone but modifying it to an extent will provide a great and effective set that won't kill the knees.
#11
Semper Fi
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 12,942
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1172 Post(s)
Liked 358 Times
in
241 Posts
I never had any use for the squat sled, I always did them in the rack or else did donkey calf raises and used the leg press machine in both front and back positions. And always did a lot of stretching first. Right now I am fighting an inflamed Achilles tendon from just standing up wrong a few nights ago. Knees have done remarkably well for a former lineman and catcher.
Bill
Bill
__________________
Semper Fi, USMC, 1975-1977
I Can Do All Things Through Him, Who Gives Me Strength. Philippians 4:13
Semper Fi, USMC, 1975-1977
I Can Do All Things Through Him, Who Gives Me Strength. Philippians 4:13
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,712
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I wonder where you are finding these "most orthopedic surgeons"? All of my orthopedically or neurologically trained medical providers endorse free weights as heavy as I wish. At the same time they reinforce what I know and practice about progressive training.
Sorry you hurt yourself. I hope you heal quickly and you return to weight lifting with a new sense of purpose and caution.
I should add that if a person hasn't done free weights in a long time it is well worth the effort to get a refresher course from a proffessional teacher. Form is almost everything in free weights. Having someone who is well qualified critique your form will prevent a lot of pain while speeding the benefits.
Sorry you hurt yourself. I hope you heal quickly and you return to weight lifting with a new sense of purpose and caution.
I should add that if a person hasn't done free weights in a long time it is well worth the effort to get a refresher course from a proffessional teacher. Form is almost everything in free weights. Having someone who is well qualified critique your form will prevent a lot of pain while speeding the benefits.
Last edited by ModeratedUser150120149; 12-27-11 at 04:54 PM.
#13
Senior Member
The thing about squats:
In the 90's I was unhappy with my ski performance. Then I regularly did three sets of 12 reps of squats using the mid-boggling weight of 35 lbs. After six months I had all the leg I needed (sadly, I still lacked coordination).
But anyone our age who goes onto weight training full bore is just asking for some nasty tendinitis.
In the 90's I was unhappy with my ski performance. Then I regularly did three sets of 12 reps of squats using the mid-boggling weight of 35 lbs. After six months I had all the leg I needed (sadly, I still lacked coordination).
But anyone our age who goes onto weight training full bore is just asking for some nasty tendinitis.
__________________
Momento mori, amor fati.
Momento mori, amor fati.
#14
Senior Member
Mike,
You've clearly been around gyms for a while. And I agree about the squats working the stabilizers, while machine exercises (including - to some extent - the smith machine) do nothing for stabilizer muscles.
I gave up my BB routine when I started focusing on cycling and mountain hiking/climbing. But when I was at my peak, I could push over 800 lbs on a leg press but only 315 in proper squats. I did, however, find that those two exercises hit slightly different muscle groups. The leg press, for example, hit the glutes so hard that I couldn't sit without pain for 3 days afterward :lol
I'm still doing squats now, to help cycling and climbing, but I've change to 5 sets of 20 at 135. It seems to suit my current needs better.
But to (re) endorse what everyone has said here:
- Start slowly
- Use perfect form
You've clearly been around gyms for a while. And I agree about the squats working the stabilizers, while machine exercises (including - to some extent - the smith machine) do nothing for stabilizer muscles.
I gave up my BB routine when I started focusing on cycling and mountain hiking/climbing. But when I was at my peak, I could push over 800 lbs on a leg press but only 315 in proper squats. I did, however, find that those two exercises hit slightly different muscle groups. The leg press, for example, hit the glutes so hard that I couldn't sit without pain for 3 days afterward :lol
I'm still doing squats now, to help cycling and climbing, but I've change to 5 sets of 20 at 135. It seems to suit my current needs better.
But to (re) endorse what everyone has said here:
- Start slowly
- Use perfect form
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 523
Bikes: 2012 Motobecane (BikesDirect) Immortal Force; 2011 (?) Civia Bryant Gates Carbon Belt Drive (upgraded to Alfine 11 and Gates CenterTrack)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
One time, after I had been using the Smith machine for a while, I decided just for the heck of it to do a free weight squat with very little weight. That was an eye opener - the weight was at most a 1/3 of what I could squat with the Smith machine for several sets, and I could not do more than a couple of squats. My quads and glutes were plenty strong, but I was wobbling all over the place. I was pretty surprised.
#16
Banned.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 20,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
Yeah, after New Years. I think that I will put my Smith machine on CL for sale or trade for a high quality cage.
One time, after I had been using the Smith machine for a while, I decided just for the heck of it to do a free weight squat with very little weight. That was an eye opener - the weight was at most a 1/3 of what I could squat with the Smith machine for several sets, and I could not do more than a couple of squats. My quads and glutes were plenty strong, but I was wobbling all over the place. I was pretty surprised.
One time, after I had been using the Smith machine for a while, I decided just for the heck of it to do a free weight squat with very little weight. That was an eye opener - the weight was at most a 1/3 of what I could squat with the Smith machine for several sets, and I could not do more than a couple of squats. My quads and glutes were plenty strong, but I was wobbling all over the place. I was pretty surprised.
#18
Motorcycle RoadRacer
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,826
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
4 Posts
On squats with free weights, one should just go right in and bang up to their max. You ease up to you heavier weights. Now, if you a regular, you still ease up to your max..
The feeling from doing leg squats with a barbell is awesome. I have banged my knees before, I know the warning signs, and most of what not to do. After I warm up, with stretching I do a couple sets of squats at a quarter of what I lift. Then I do 3 sets of 10 or 12 without taking the bar down, and about 7 to 10 seconds pause. Then I put the bar down.. Do 3 more sets. I found out that helps me more on the bicycle.
#19
Watching and waiting.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Mattoon,Ill
Posts: 2,023
Bikes: Trek 7300 Trek Madone 4.5 Surly Cross Check
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I have a belief that momentum is the great injurer and the object of resistance training is to work the muscle. With free weights and most weight machines it's all too easy to "cheat" and gain that next step up in weight by "exploding" in the beginning of a rep. It's a behavior that takes a lot of disipline to control. Something that I lack. The Y got in a 10 station rubber band based circuit. My joints are much happier. The rubberband resistance has very little mass so changing direction doesn't jerk. There is much less benefit to exploding. You still can if you want to but it will deaccelerate much quicker.
#20
Semper Fi
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 12,942
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1172 Post(s)
Liked 358 Times
in
241 Posts
Denver,
That workout area looks great. What trainer are you using for the suffer fest time?
Bill
That workout area looks great. What trainer are you using for the suffer fest time?
Bill
__________________
Semper Fi, USMC, 1975-1977
I Can Do All Things Through Him, Who Gives Me Strength. Philippians 4:13
Semper Fi, USMC, 1975-1977
I Can Do All Things Through Him, Who Gives Me Strength. Philippians 4:13
#21
Banned.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 20,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
[EDIT] - posted a new pic as of today.
I am going to replace it with a new one today, if I have time. I now have a Spec Hardrock on the mag trainer, which I use ONLY in the most desperate of times - i.e., it is 20 degrees below zero and the wind is blowing at 50 mph and it is a blizzard.
I live 1 mile on the MUP from our rec center, and I will walk the mile under most circumstances, swim for about 50 minutes and walk back - all in place of using the trainer.
I have videos (Spinervals) and they help some, but I just detest being inside.
I also am a strong believer in cross training, which, for me, at 72, consists of walking, swimming, bicycling, resistance exercises, stretching and typing this on the computer So, bicycling is not my entire life.
I got out for a nice ride yesterday. I had to walk the bike about 1/2 mile through the ice in our neighborhood, but after that the MUPs are well plowed, except a bit of ice under the bridges.
My life has been complicated of late by a return of my Trigeminal Neuralgia which has been in remission for a bit.
"Very painful, sharp electric-like spasms that usually last a few seconds or minutes, but can become constant"
requiring some rather strong medications which affect me in a variety of ways; particularly painful while swimming.
Last edited by DnvrFox; 12-28-11 at 07:52 AM.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,712
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
My physical therapist had me get a proper size Balance Ball. (There is a big blue one in the image of Denver's workout room) I started out a doubter about how much that thing could do for me. But, with body weight only and doing the prescribed exercises it has amazed me just how much stability and strength I've developed over the past few months. They are cheap and very effective if done right. Get the correct size and you won't regret it.
#23
Version 7.0
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,127
Bikes: Too Many
Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1340 Post(s)
Liked 2,482 Times
in
1,457 Posts
I agree with others that you don't need to max out the weight stand to do squats. My current routine is a super set that will have my legs quivering at the end. My continuous set goes like this: 15 x 16" box jumps, right to 10 x upside down bocu ball squats, right to 10 squats balancing on two medicine balls, right to failure to 10 reps of squats standing/balancing on a 55 cm stability ball.
That level of effort might not be for everyone but modifying it to an extent will provide a great and effective set that won't kill the knees.
That level of effort might not be for everyone but modifying it to an extent will provide a great and effective set that won't kill the knees.
I do not do any heavy leg squats or presses, olympic lifts, dead lifts and etc. I know several very successful sprinters who do lift heavy weights to success on the bike.
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Posts: 163
Bikes: domane trek
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#25
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Thanks for all the post,
I guess this was meant to be a friendly warning about changing methods IE
weights, It was really easiy to exceed my tendons ability, while only
using the ease of lifting the weight mechanically assisted.
The reps makes sense.
My Injury has been slowly healing ,( I beleive) It was only a level 1 sprain, by my assesment of
current medical research I did.
The pain is now a mild throbing easily controlled by naprisin, slowly increasing
milleage avoiding hammering and a soft knee brace supports the medial tendon
when walking for extended periods.
In about another couple months it should be 100% pain free.
I was very lucky , I don't want anyone to experience this type of Injury
it was due to weaker tendons not frequently used in cycling.
It was the medial tendon of the right knee..My stronger leg.
No warning it just surfaces 24 hours post injury, most likely
due to tendons that have frayed or bruised from excessive strain.
Thanks again...
Doug
The good new I realize how unbalanced my cycling effort has been
working on strenght training my left leg, and focusing on form,
and position of balanced pedal effort, now seeing improvment from
this way of training we tend to develope less than optimal pedal
stokes, that twinge sort of says hey bring that knee in....
I guess this was meant to be a friendly warning about changing methods IE
weights, It was really easiy to exceed my tendons ability, while only
using the ease of lifting the weight mechanically assisted.
The reps makes sense.
My Injury has been slowly healing ,( I beleive) It was only a level 1 sprain, by my assesment of
current medical research I did.
The pain is now a mild throbing easily controlled by naprisin, slowly increasing
milleage avoiding hammering and a soft knee brace supports the medial tendon
when walking for extended periods.
In about another couple months it should be 100% pain free.
I was very lucky , I don't want anyone to experience this type of Injury
it was due to weaker tendons not frequently used in cycling.
It was the medial tendon of the right knee..My stronger leg.
No warning it just surfaces 24 hours post injury, most likely
due to tendons that have frayed or bruised from excessive strain.
Thanks again...
Doug
The good new I realize how unbalanced my cycling effort has been
working on strenght training my left leg, and focusing on form,
and position of balanced pedal effort, now seeing improvment from
this way of training we tend to develope less than optimal pedal
stokes, that twinge sort of says hey bring that knee in....
Last edited by djnzlab1; 01-09-12 at 08:58 AM.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
humboldt'sroads
Training & Nutrition
19
11-22-14 06:09 PM