Need a lawyer! Or am I wrong?
03-30-15, 10:15 AM
#26
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Now, the road was closed. The 10mph bike path signs that are usually out during the spring and summer, when the road is closed were not out. And I only crossed the lines to go around the truck! He sped up! He also exceeded the speed limit! He didn't get a ticket!
I am going to fight this! Do I have any recourse? I thought that the speed limit on the west side was 35mph, not 25. I checked STRAVA and I was only doing 30.4mph. Should I bring that up? I am going to get a lawyer. The roadway was closed!
I am going to fight this! Do I have any recourse? I thought that the speed limit on the west side was 35mph, not 25. I checked STRAVA and I was only doing 30.4mph. Should I bring that up? I am going to get a lawyer. The roadway was closed!
You should not quote your Strava as a speedometer, as it is not necessarily exact (it doesn't import data from any real sensor, but approximates data based on changes in your GPS location).
03-30-15, 10:31 AM
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That's not necessarily true. In many places there will be one cop who is on court duty for an entire day and will represent the department for all cases that day even if they were not the officer involved in the incident. I've fought a ticket and had that experience. It's actually better to have the officer that was involved show up in those cases. An officer representing the other will just go based on the report which will clearly say you are guilty and the judge will take it at face value.
03-30-15, 10:45 AM
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Kids now and days!
03-30-15, 10:50 AM
#29
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Felt like a nice no traffic ride today.
So I headed to my favorite cycling spot here in Philly. The Drive. It has a west and a east side, with a river in between, BEAUTIFUL!
I coast down Midville ,I head over the Falls bridge, see that the gates to the west side are closed and think GREAT! I can ride in the street, no tree stumps and bad concrete today! Just smooth asphalt! I'm in bliss for a whole half a mile.
Then I see the police lights flashing and then the orange cones all the way accross the roadway, and then the people, ALL OF THE PEOPLE! There is a Walk/Run event going on! Damn! Don't get me wrong I support all of the causes and events, but MY RIDE! OK, i'm back to the path, or should I say the Roubex, cobbles, what have you, get the Idea? Its bad! Ok i'll just take it easy, enjoy the view, dodge the CREVASSES and tree stumps, and just take in the ride.
NO! Not happening! They have Bands! and water stations, and medics all set up on the path! Mud and soft dirt on both sides of it! every 300 or so yards for 4 miles! And the participants, the 50' wide road wasn't enough, they are on the path also! With dogs with long leashes, toddlers, stadium chairs, sign holders AUGGGG.
I get past the Art Museum and think GREAT, Now i'm on the East side, I can deal with the joggers and dog walkers and clueless recreational bikers. and get in 4 miles of moderate paced riding.
NO! After one mile of swerving and practicing my bike handling skills, now there is a rowing event! People everywhere! thousands! School Kids handling 20' and bigger scull's, walking with oars so long it takes 2 people to carry them! All of this on a 6' wide path! My head almost got taken off twice! I endure all of this for two laps!
Now this is where I need some advice. On my third lap. I cross over Falls bridge, going at a nice pace, open my pedal up because I know I have a little open road before the Run/walk people. I come around the curve and there are no cones, no police blocking the road, a few trucks loading up barriers. AND NICE WIDE OPEN ROAD! I think I screamed YAY out loud, because some of the sanitation guy's looked at me. And I went to my regular pace, since now I am all warmed up!
2 miles in, I pass a police car, he is sitting still, i'm only doing maybe 20, 22mph, he is on the right so I pass him on the left. Mind you the drive is closed. Gates at both ends, the drive has 4 lanes for traffic, with a double yellow line down the center. I pedal maybe another half mile and I come up on one of those big box trucks, I guess he has just finished loading up barriers and he is just starting to pull off. I swing to the left, thinking I will just go around him and once passed I would go back to the right. No I hear him floor it! So now i'm on the side of this box truck, doing still about 20,22mph over the yellow lines, and I'm thinking, if he turns left to get to the other side of the road I'm dead! So I did what I thought was right, I went to a sprint!
I passed the truck, pulled way in front of him, and went back to the right! I heard the truck driver say DAMN! Then laugh! Then I heard the police horn.
The Police woman pulled me over, The truck driver pulled over and he and a few of his men got out, SHE LAID ME OUT! I felt like I was 5 years old! Then the truck driver threw fuel on the fire. I was going about 30, and he passed me, so he had to be going faster than the speed limit! I kind of smiled when he said that. Then I looked at the policewoman, DAMN! She looked at me real hard, walked to her car and came back writing! I was cited for being reckless, crossing over the yellow double lines, exceeding the posted 25mph speed limit, and something about not excceeding 10 mph on a designated bike path.
Now, the road was closed. The 10mph bike path signs that are usually out during the spring and summer, when the road is closed were not out. And I only crossed the lines to go around the truck! He sped up! He also exceeded the speed limit! He didn't get a ticket!
I am going to fight this! Do I have any recourse? I thought that the speed limit on the west side was 35mph, not 25. I checked STRAVA and I was only doing 30.4mph. Should I bring that up? I am going to get a lawyer. The roadway was closed!
So I headed to my favorite cycling spot here in Philly. The Drive. It has a west and a east side, with a river in between, BEAUTIFUL!
I coast down Midville ,I head over the Falls bridge, see that the gates to the west side are closed and think GREAT! I can ride in the street, no tree stumps and bad concrete today! Just smooth asphalt! I'm in bliss for a whole half a mile.
Then I see the police lights flashing and then the orange cones all the way accross the roadway, and then the people, ALL OF THE PEOPLE! There is a Walk/Run event going on! Damn! Don't get me wrong I support all of the causes and events, but MY RIDE! OK, i'm back to the path, or should I say the Roubex, cobbles, what have you, get the Idea? Its bad! Ok i'll just take it easy, enjoy the view, dodge the CREVASSES and tree stumps, and just take in the ride.
NO! Not happening! They have Bands! and water stations, and medics all set up on the path! Mud and soft dirt on both sides of it! every 300 or so yards for 4 miles! And the participants, the 50' wide road wasn't enough, they are on the path also! With dogs with long leashes, toddlers, stadium chairs, sign holders AUGGGG.
I get past the Art Museum and think GREAT, Now i'm on the East side, I can deal with the joggers and dog walkers and clueless recreational bikers. and get in 4 miles of moderate paced riding.
NO! After one mile of swerving and practicing my bike handling skills, now there is a rowing event! People everywhere! thousands! School Kids handling 20' and bigger scull's, walking with oars so long it takes 2 people to carry them! All of this on a 6' wide path! My head almost got taken off twice! I endure all of this for two laps!
Now this is where I need some advice. On my third lap. I cross over Falls bridge, going at a nice pace, open my pedal up because I know I have a little open road before the Run/walk people. I come around the curve and there are no cones, no police blocking the road, a few trucks loading up barriers. AND NICE WIDE OPEN ROAD! I think I screamed YAY out loud, because some of the sanitation guy's looked at me. And I went to my regular pace, since now I am all warmed up!
2 miles in, I pass a police car, he is sitting still, i'm only doing maybe 20, 22mph, he is on the right so I pass him on the left. Mind you the drive is closed. Gates at both ends, the drive has 4 lanes for traffic, with a double yellow line down the center. I pedal maybe another half mile and I come up on one of those big box trucks, I guess he has just finished loading up barriers and he is just starting to pull off. I swing to the left, thinking I will just go around him and once passed I would go back to the right. No I hear him floor it! So now i'm on the side of this box truck, doing still about 20,22mph over the yellow lines, and I'm thinking, if he turns left to get to the other side of the road I'm dead! So I did what I thought was right, I went to a sprint!
I passed the truck, pulled way in front of him, and went back to the right! I heard the truck driver say DAMN! Then laugh! Then I heard the police horn.
The Police woman pulled me over, The truck driver pulled over and he and a few of his men got out, SHE LAID ME OUT! I felt like I was 5 years old! Then the truck driver threw fuel on the fire. I was going about 30, and he passed me, so he had to be going faster than the speed limit! I kind of smiled when he said that. Then I looked at the policewoman, DAMN! She looked at me real hard, walked to her car and came back writing! I was cited for being reckless, crossing over the yellow double lines, exceeding the posted 25mph speed limit, and something about not excceeding 10 mph on a designated bike path.
Now, the road was closed. The 10mph bike path signs that are usually out during the spring and summer, when the road is closed were not out. And I only crossed the lines to go around the truck! He sped up! He also exceeded the speed limit! He didn't get a ticket!
I am going to fight this! Do I have any recourse? I thought that the speed limit on the west side was 35mph, not 25. I checked STRAVA and I was only doing 30.4mph. Should I bring that up? I am going to get a lawyer. The roadway was closed!
03-30-15, 10:58 AM
#30
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I'll take the case for $200/hr. BTW...The speed limit on both drives is 35 mph, not 25 mph. But I hope you have learned your lesson. When city workers are out there breaking down an event, take it easy before you end up run over. And when the MLK closures start this coming weekend, ride courteously and defensively.
03-30-15, 11:05 AM
#31
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Then I see the police lights flashing and then the orange cones all the way accross the roadway, and then the people, ALL OF THE PEOPLE! There is a Walk/Run event going on! Damn! Don't get me wrong I support all of the causes and events, but MY RIDE! OK, i'm back to the path, or should I say the Roubex, cobbles, what have you, get the Idea? Its bad!
I have used the path along West River Road during the Twin Cities Marathon, but it was a slow cruiser ride to lunch. I will say, I loved the placement of pot-o-johns next to the bike path, with door opening onto the bike path.... Whole new kind of door prize.
I'm glad to see you decided to pay your fine and move on.
03-30-15, 11:05 AM
#32
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This turns on a few specifics, and you should be able to beat some of the charges or at least get a lower fine. If you have a driver's license you want to appear and request this isn't reflected on your driving record. The rules on this vary by state, but there's a very good chance that if you ask nicely, the judge will grant that if he can within the law.
From what you post (which i all I know of the event) the officer shouldn't have cited you for speeding unless she saw it with her own eyes, so that may be grounds for dismissal. You do have a valid excuse for crossing the double yellow, if you were forced by he truck pulling out as you were passing. Part of the issue depends on whether you were riding on the road, or if the road was closed at the time.
If they do things the same in Phila as they do in New York, the officer and prosecutor will be waiting in the hallway outside court before trial. You have an opportunity to ask to discuss this, and very likely (100% or the time IME) they'll accommodate you and you can negotiate a compromise that works for everybody, probably you pleading guilty a d paying a fine for one of the charges, with no record on your driver's license.
Once you and the prosecutor and officer come to terms, the prosecutor will enter a disposition before trial, and the judge will accept your plea to the agreement.
Settling this outside the courtroom before trial is important, because the prosecutor is motivated to save time. If you wait until open court, and plead innocent, he'll have to present his case first, and with the time already lost, will be less motivated to work with you.
Handled right, this shouldn't cost you a fortune, not be entered on your driving record, which seems like a reasonable outcome.
Meanwhile, while I'm sympathetic to your cause, based on your version of the story, I have to wonder what provoked the officer in the first place. That's something you need to think about next time around.
From what you post (which i all I know of the event) the officer shouldn't have cited you for speeding unless she saw it with her own eyes, so that may be grounds for dismissal. You do have a valid excuse for crossing the double yellow, if you were forced by he truck pulling out as you were passing. Part of the issue depends on whether you were riding on the road, or if the road was closed at the time.
If they do things the same in Phila as they do in New York, the officer and prosecutor will be waiting in the hallway outside court before trial. You have an opportunity to ask to discuss this, and very likely (100% or the time IME) they'll accommodate you and you can negotiate a compromise that works for everybody, probably you pleading guilty a d paying a fine for one of the charges, with no record on your driver's license.
Once you and the prosecutor and officer come to terms, the prosecutor will enter a disposition before trial, and the judge will accept your plea to the agreement.
Settling this outside the courtroom before trial is important, because the prosecutor is motivated to save time. If you wait until open court, and plead innocent, he'll have to present his case first, and with the time already lost, will be less motivated to work with you.
Handled right, this shouldn't cost you a fortune, not be entered on your driving record, which seems like a reasonable outcome.
Meanwhile, while I'm sympathetic to your cause, based on your version of the story, I have to wonder what provoked the officer in the first place. That's something you need to think about next time around.
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03-30-15, 11:25 AM
#33
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I live right near where the two roads he's talking about end at the Art Museum. This is the time of year when events start happening nearly every weekend. The road where he was given the ticket is closed to vehicles for the summer starting this upcoming weekend, although it is still used for organized walk/runs some weekends. The crowds at subsequent clean up can be an inconvenience, but they need to be dealt with in a rational manner.
03-30-15, 11:33 AM
#34
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In this city, it is risky to show a defiant attitude towards city workers when there are cops around. The road was closed for part of the day for a half marathon. The truck was probably involved with cleaning up afterwards. He should have been deferential and just let them do their jobs. Better yet, he could have ridden not that far away from where he started, avoided all the people and activity and ridden on an MUP.
I live right near where the two roads he's talking about end at the Art Museum. This is the time of year when events start happening nearly every weekend. The road where he was given the ticket is closed to vehicles for the summer starting this upcoming weekend, although it is still used for organized walk/runs some weekends. The crowds at subsequent clean up can be an inconvenience, but they need to be dealt with in a rational manner.
I live right near where the two roads he's talking about end at the Art Museum. This is the time of year when events start happening nearly every weekend. The road where he was given the ticket is closed to vehicles for the summer starting this upcoming weekend, although it is still used for organized walk/runs some weekends. The crowds at subsequent clean up can be an inconvenience, but they need to be dealt with in a rational manner.
IME- common sense rules the day, and more often than not, it's not what you do, but how you do it that counts.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
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WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
03-30-15, 12:56 PM
#36
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03-30-15, 01:05 PM
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I would fight it. From hearing your side of it, unless there's more to it I think the whole thing is weak.
I wouldn't negotiate with the prosecutor either. He, and the cop, are your adversaries. It is an adversarial court system. They have no interest in working with you - they aim to get the most possible with the least trouble. Make it more trouble than it's worth if you want to win.
I wouldn't negotiate with the prosecutor either. He, and the cop, are your adversaries. It is an adversarial court system. They have no interest in working with you - they aim to get the most possible with the least trouble. Make it more trouble than it's worth if you want to win.
03-30-15, 01:11 PM
#38
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What are they going to do, take away your bicycle license?
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03-30-15, 01:39 PM
#39
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In some states, moving violations on a bicycle can be entered into the driving record an count the same as if you were driving a car. Many judges will let this be avoided if you just ask. IMO- this, and not the $$ fine may be the best reason to appear and seek a better resolution than simply pleading guilty by mail and paying.
Of course, this varies by state (not in NYS for example, though I've heard of cases where it was done in error), and is a non-issue if you don't have a driver's license anyway.
Of course, this varies by state (not in NYS for example, though I've heard of cases where it was done in error), and is a non-issue if you don't have a driver's license anyway.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
03-30-15, 01:46 PM
#40
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That's not necessarily true. In many places there will be one cop who is on court duty for an entire day and will represent the department for all cases that day even if they were not the officer involved in the incident. I've fought a ticket and had that experience. It's actually better to have the officer that was involved show up in those cases. An officer representing the other will just go based on the report which will clearly say you are guilty and the judge will take it at face value.
The judge and prosecutor and cops are not our friends. They are there to get convictions and make money for the system which employs them. Even in very serious cases, where people are facing major criminal charges/prison time, it is not at all uncommon for prosecutors to know the accused is innocent, and to actually supress evidence which would prove their innocence. They just want convictions. They don't care if you're innocent or guilty.
Judges are not there to listen to your story and act like reasonable men. They are there to make sure that legal protocols are followed, so that you are found guilty, and have no recourse. They must abide by the technicalities of the law, and you can be sure that the cops and prosecutors know how to use those technicalities, and if you don't, you essentially waive any rights you have by not demanding them.
03-30-15, 01:59 PM
#41
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03-30-15, 02:03 PM
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Well at least he got 2015 KOM:
- KOM on Kelly Drive Loop in 2015 2 days ago
KOM on Neils Fall Bridge Loop in 2015 2 days ago
03-30-15, 02:34 PM
#43
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I guess backing off your speed a bit, and falling behind the truck until it turned, wasn't an option. 
Chasing a Strava segment, were we?
Chasing a Strava segment, were we?
03-30-15, 03:06 PM
#45
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That is, IF we take the OP's story as truth. He might not be a clueless rolling road hazard - he might be a liar.
03-30-15, 03:38 PM
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If we take the OP's story as truth, his actions and attitude is exactly why rules like that should exist. If he is so self absorbed and arrogant to think he has the right of way over a municipal truck working on a municipal event, then I hate to think what sort of driver he would be when he's having a bad day. The whole story of him trying to get quality training miles in while he rode on a crowded recreational path is a description of why so many people hate cyclists. Coming on here to brag/justify this to himself is evidence that he is completely out of touch with reality.
That is, IF we take the OP's story as truth. He might not be a clueless rolling road hazard - he might be a liar.
That is, IF we take the OP's story as truth. He might not be a clueless rolling road hazard - he might be a liar.
so he likely shouldn't bring it up in court either.His story does have a great number of stereotypical elements though. Griping about the walk/run on his road, then about the path, then about event stations, event people, on and on, and the finishing touches of his conflict, high speed, cutting off etc is a little much.
Nevertheless, giving him the benefit of the doubt the ticket itself involved his passing of the truck, which initially was stopped roadside. The truck sped up as he passed, forcing him into the left lane. And even if the speed limit really was 25 instead of 35, it is reasonable for a vehicle to speed up when passing another which attempts to prevent the pass. Taking those events at face value and in isolation, don't you think that the citation is weak and should be contested?
03-30-15, 06:56 PM
#48
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03-31-15, 07:25 AM
#49
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Clearly his back-story doesn't help his case in this venue so he likely shouldn't bring it up in court either.
His story does have a great number of stereotypical elements though. Griping about the walk/run on his road, then about the path, then about event stations, event people, on and on, and the finishing touches of his conflict, high speed, cutting off etc is a little much.
Nevertheless, giving him the benefit of the doubt the ticket itself involved his passing of the truck, which initially was stopped roadside. The truck sped up as he passed, forcing him into the left lane. And even if the speed limit really was 25 instead of 35, it is reasonable for a vehicle to speed up when passing another which attempts to prevent the pass. Taking those events at face value and in isolation, don't you think that the citation is weak and should be contested?
so he likely shouldn't bring it up in court either.His story does have a great number of stereotypical elements though. Griping about the walk/run on his road, then about the path, then about event stations, event people, on and on, and the finishing touches of his conflict, high speed, cutting off etc is a little much.
Nevertheless, giving him the benefit of the doubt the ticket itself involved his passing of the truck, which initially was stopped roadside. The truck sped up as he passed, forcing him into the left lane. And even if the speed limit really was 25 instead of 35, it is reasonable for a vehicle to speed up when passing another which attempts to prevent the pass. Taking those events at face value and in isolation, don't you think that the citation is weak and should be contested?
03-31-15, 07:39 AM
#50
Fatty McFatcakes
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Wrong word choice.
Dissertation implies an intelligent, thoughtful and articulate explanation.
I only got about half-way through, finding it to read more like the self-absorbed, rambling, run-on opus of an adolescent.
Dissertation implies an intelligent, thoughtful and articulate explanation.
I only got about half-way through, finding it to read more like the self-absorbed, rambling, run-on opus of an adolescent.