I have a theory about wheels...or is it an opinion?
04-22-15, 12:06 PM
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
While there are certainly some salespeople that are only looking for an immediate one-timer, good salespeople are looking to establish a long-term relationship with their customers, one that will see future purchases and lots of referrals; good service is not at all at odds with a vested interest.
04-22-15, 12:31 PM
#27
Senior Member
To me, the most important thing with wheels is how much the rider weighs and how the wheel is intended to be used. Heavier riders need more spokes and a stronger rim to have wheels that won't go out of true and last longer. The same is true of loaded tourers or gravel riders.
The second most important thing is the quality of the build and the quality of the parts. In these factors it makes sense to ask someone with experience what will last longest and work best.
Lastly, I believe performance advantages derived from even the lightest or most aero wheel are marginal for most people here and shouldn't be the first factor to consider. These factors do exist, I just think the improvement curve gets very flat very quickly these days.
It's funny because most people here work through these factors in the exact opposite way I propose. As a result, to me people pay most for the things that matter least.
The second most important thing is the quality of the build and the quality of the parts. In these factors it makes sense to ask someone with experience what will last longest and work best.
Lastly, I believe performance advantages derived from even the lightest or most aero wheel are marginal for most people here and shouldn't be the first factor to consider. These factors do exist, I just think the improvement curve gets very flat very quickly these days.
It's funny because most people here work through these factors in the exact opposite way I propose. As a result, to me people pay most for the things that matter least.
04-22-15, 02:02 PM
#28
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
To me, the most important thing with wheels is how much the rider weighs and how the wheel is intended to be used. Heavier riders need more spokes and a stronger rim to have wheels that won't go out of true and last longer. The same is true of loaded tourers or gravel riders.
The second most important thing is the quality of the build and the quality of the parts. In these factors it makes sense to ask someone with experience what will last longest and work best.
Lastly, I believe performance advantages derived from even the lightest or most aero wheel are marginal for most people here and shouldn't be the first factor to consider. These factors do exist, I just think the improvement curve gets very flat very quickly these days.
It's funny because most people here work through these factors in the exact opposite way I propose. As a result, to me people pay most for the things that matter least.
The second most important thing is the quality of the build and the quality of the parts. In these factors it makes sense to ask someone with experience what will last longest and work best.
Lastly, I believe performance advantages derived from even the lightest or most aero wheel are marginal for most people here and shouldn't be the first factor to consider. These factors do exist, I just think the improvement curve gets very flat very quickly these days.
It's funny because most people here work through these factors in the exact opposite way I propose. As a result, to me people pay most for the things that matter least.
04-22-15, 02:37 PM
#29
I eat carbide.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 21,627
Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1325 Post(s)
Liked 1,306 Times
in
560 Posts
This is a silly, short-sighted, narrow-minded statement. A good way to get consistently poor service is to seek the help from someone with no vested interest - why would you think that indifference is a good thing?
While there are certainly some salespeople that are only looking for an immediate one-timer, good salespeople are looking to establish a long-term relationship with their customers, one that will see future purchases and lots of referrals; good service is not at all at odds with a vested interest.
While there are certainly some salespeople that are only looking for an immediate one-timer, good salespeople are looking to establish a long-term relationship with their customers, one that will see future purchases and lots of referrals; good service is not at all at odds with a vested interest.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels
04-22-15, 03:01 PM
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18376 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
I agree, all things equal, I don't care who built the wheels.
Unfortunately, not all things are equal.
Take Shimano hubs for example. Take a set of M30/M40 hubs and twist the axle, then compare to Ultegra/Dura Ace. Notice any difference. Now, you may point out that the actual friction coefficient is low, but I believe that it also is related to the longevity of the cones and hubs.
Likewise, I've now popped the heads off of 3 outbound spokes on my front wheel (generic spokes, unknown age). Yes... happens on the front. What I've noticed is that the heads of my DT replacement spokes seat well. The heads of the original spokes aren't seated well, even after several years and thousands of miles.
Anyway, I don't care who made my hubs, wheels, rims, and etc, as long as they are "quality" components, and the manufacturer cares enough to at least put their own name on them.
Unfortunately, not all things are equal.
Take Shimano hubs for example. Take a set of M30/M40 hubs and twist the axle, then compare to Ultegra/Dura Ace. Notice any difference. Now, you may point out that the actual friction coefficient is low, but I believe that it also is related to the longevity of the cones and hubs.
Likewise, I've now popped the heads off of 3 outbound spokes on my front wheel (generic spokes, unknown age). Yes... happens on the front. What I've noticed is that the heads of my DT replacement spokes seat well. The heads of the original spokes aren't seated well, even after several years and thousands of miles.
Anyway, I don't care who made my hubs, wheels, rims, and etc, as long as they are "quality" components, and the manufacturer cares enough to at least put their own name on them.
04-22-15, 03:25 PM
#31
Coffin Dodger
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,138
Bikes: Motobecane Vent Noir, Lynskey R345, Serotta Nova Special X
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 794 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
143 Posts
This is a silly, short-sighted, narrow-minded statement. A good way to get consistently poor service is to seek the help from someone with no vested interest - why would you think that indifference is a good thing?
While there are certainly some salespeople that are only looking for an immediate one-timer, good salespeople are looking to establish a long-term relationship with their customers, one that will see future purchases and lots of referrals; good service is not at all at odds with a vested interest.
While there are certainly some salespeople that are only looking for an immediate one-timer, good salespeople are looking to establish a long-term relationship with their customers, one that will see future purchases and lots of referrals; good service is not at all at odds with a vested interest.
04-22-15, 04:59 PM
#32
Voice of the Industry
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1188 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
8 Posts
First...cutting to the chase...lets say there is parity in quality between wheel components which isn't true because there is enough difference in wheel component design to make a difference in performance.
But the real discriminator other than a quality or performance difference between spokes, hubs and rims is:.
1. who makes them. If Psimet makes a wheelset and I make my 20th wheelset, Psimet's build is going to be better...a lot better.
2. you may think you know a lot about wheels but the reality is most pro wheel builders know more. Pro's tend to know more than amateurs and what makes them a pro. So a pro with a particular set of metrics may recommend something much different than what I think I need in a wheel build for example. I could call Psimet and provide some guidelines he may say no....for this particular rim because it is stiffer than most, I don't need 28 spokes but instead can make due with 24. He may suggest a particular spoke tension for a given set of wheels which maybe different than another.
To me, Robert your thesis is highly flawed because of the above. Which comes full circle why guys like me just ride off the rack from a reputable wheel supplier like Campy...or Shimano...or Zipp etc. I don't feel a need for a custom set of wheels anymore than I need a custom frameset...or a custom made saddle...or custom made handlebar especially today with the tremendous diversity of product available to the consumer.
But the real discriminator other than a quality or performance difference between spokes, hubs and rims is:.
1. who makes them. If Psimet makes a wheelset and I make my 20th wheelset, Psimet's build is going to be better...a lot better.
2. you may think you know a lot about wheels but the reality is most pro wheel builders know more. Pro's tend to know more than amateurs and what makes them a pro. So a pro with a particular set of metrics may recommend something much different than what I think I need in a wheel build for example. I could call Psimet and provide some guidelines he may say no....for this particular rim because it is stiffer than most, I don't need 28 spokes but instead can make due with 24. He may suggest a particular spoke tension for a given set of wheels which maybe different than another.
To me, Robert your thesis is highly flawed because of the above. Which comes full circle why guys like me just ride off the rack from a reputable wheel supplier like Campy...or Shimano...or Zipp etc. I don't feel a need for a custom set of wheels anymore than I need a custom frameset...or a custom made saddle...or custom made handlebar especially today with the tremendous diversity of product available to the consumer.
Last edited by Campag4life; 04-22-15 at 05:02 PM.
04-22-15, 05:48 PM
#33
.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Rocket City, No'ala
Posts: 12,763
Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 5.2, 1985 Pinarello Treviso, 1990 Gardin Shred, 2006 Bianchi San Jose
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 28 Times
in
13 Posts
It just doesn't matter. The name on the wheel, that is. It is of no importance.
Someone is asking right now in another thread whether they should get the ABC wheels or the XYZ wheels. It doesn't matter per se. So what does matter? The specifications pure and simple. If you know what you need and want, you can research the wheels specifications and get the cheapest embodiment. The names are unimportant. Let's stop there for a minute while I make a disclaimer. I am not talking about no-name Chinese carbon. It may be okay, but is still in its own category. I am talking about name brand stuff and the no-name/store brand stuff (aluminum and carbon)from Taiwan such as sold by Bike Hub Store, BDop, and all over ebay.
So what do I mean? Do you want clincher or tubular? Check! What material do you want, aluminum, carbon, or carbon with an aluminum brake track? Check! How deep the profile? Check? How wide the top cross section? Check! How many spokes? Check! Aero spokes or round? Blingy hubs or plain vanilla? Loaded with decals or subdued? What weight? Check! Check! Check! Off the shelf, custom built, or home built? Check to all the above! Etc.
If you could have a list of every possibility and apply the above filters to it, you would obtain the reduced selection that exactly fit your requirements. From such a selection you could easily pick a winner without further advice, and my belief is that the best choice would be the cheapest one offered.
You don't need to ask someone for advice. You just need to know what you characteristics you want the wheels to have. I wouldn't be surprised if a pretty high fraction of folks in the market for new wheels wouldn't end up specifying wheels so similar to what they were already riding that buying a new set would be foolish.
Pass the popcorn and let's discuss.
Someone is asking right now in another thread whether they should get the ABC wheels or the XYZ wheels. It doesn't matter per se. So what does matter? The specifications pure and simple. If you know what you need and want, you can research the wheels specifications and get the cheapest embodiment. The names are unimportant. Let's stop there for a minute while I make a disclaimer. I am not talking about no-name Chinese carbon. It may be okay, but is still in its own category. I am talking about name brand stuff and the no-name/store brand stuff (aluminum and carbon)from Taiwan such as sold by Bike Hub Store, BDop, and all over ebay.
So what do I mean? Do you want clincher or tubular? Check! What material do you want, aluminum, carbon, or carbon with an aluminum brake track? Check! How deep the profile? Check? How wide the top cross section? Check! How many spokes? Check! Aero spokes or round? Blingy hubs or plain vanilla? Loaded with decals or subdued? What weight? Check! Check! Check! Off the shelf, custom built, or home built? Check to all the above! Etc.
If you could have a list of every possibility and apply the above filters to it, you would obtain the reduced selection that exactly fit your requirements. From such a selection you could easily pick a winner without further advice, and my belief is that the best choice would be the cheapest one offered.
You don't need to ask someone for advice. You just need to know what you characteristics you want the wheels to have. I wouldn't be surprised if a pretty high fraction of folks in the market for new wheels wouldn't end up specifying wheels so similar to what they were already riding that buying a new set would be foolish.
Pass the popcorn and let's discuss.
What wheelset did you buy?
__________________
:
04-22-15, 07:11 PM
#36
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
04-22-15, 07:12 PM
#37
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
04-22-15, 07:48 PM
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
04-22-15, 07:49 PM
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
It is very #41ier to assume that Robert has devoted 41ers.
04-22-15, 07:57 PM
#40
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
It is very #41ier to assume that Robert has devoted 41ers.
04-22-15, 09:48 PM
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,433
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 741 Post(s)
Liked 412 Times
in
230 Posts
First...cutting to the chase...lets say there is parity in quality between wheel components which isn't true because there is enough difference in wheel component design to make a difference in performance.
But the real discriminator other than a quality or performance difference between spokes, hubs and rims is:.
1. who makes them. If Psimet makes a wheelset and I make my 20th wheelset, Psimet's build is going to be better...a lot better.
2. you may think you know a lot about wheels but the reality is most pro wheel builders know more. Pro's tend to know more than amateurs and what makes them a pro. So a pro with a particular set of metrics may recommend something much different than what I think I need in a wheel build for example. I could call Psimet and provide some guidelines he may say no....for this particular rim because it is stiffer than most, I don't need 28 spokes but instead can make due with 24. He may suggest a particular spoke tension for a given set of wheels which maybe different than another.
To me, Robert your thesis is highly flawed because of the above. Which comes full circle why guys like me just ride off the rack from a reputable wheel supplier like Campy...or Shimano...or Zipp etc. I don't feel a need for a custom set of wheels anymore than I need a custom frameset...or a custom made saddle...or custom made handlebar especially today with the tremendous diversity of product available to the consumer.
But the real discriminator other than a quality or performance difference between spokes, hubs and rims is:.
1. who makes them. If Psimet makes a wheelset and I make my 20th wheelset, Psimet's build is going to be better...a lot better.
2. you may think you know a lot about wheels but the reality is most pro wheel builders know more. Pro's tend to know more than amateurs and what makes them a pro. So a pro with a particular set of metrics may recommend something much different than what I think I need in a wheel build for example. I could call Psimet and provide some guidelines he may say no....for this particular rim because it is stiffer than most, I don't need 28 spokes but instead can make due with 24. He may suggest a particular spoke tension for a given set of wheels which maybe different than another.
To me, Robert your thesis is highly flawed because of the above. Which comes full circle why guys like me just ride off the rack from a reputable wheel supplier like Campy...or Shimano...or Zipp etc. I don't feel a need for a custom set of wheels anymore than I need a custom frameset...or a custom made saddle...or custom made handlebar especially today with the tremendous diversity of product available to the consumer.
04-22-15, 10:01 PM
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: California
Posts: 1,300
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
If you cut out stiffness, aero data from a lab, and hub efficiency I guess the brand wound't matter too much. Just purely looking at weight and rim depth you can't clearly obtain the quality/speed of the wheel.
04-23-15, 12:31 AM
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18376 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
I suppose it depends on what you call outsourcing.
I started building a few wheels using Velocity Aerohead rims, MADE IN THE USA (or Australia). I can't say I wouldn't use a different manufacture, perhaps one that makes welded rims.
I've liked my Campy hubs in the past, but haven't found a place for new ones. So, at the moment, I've been using Shimano hubs, but some of them work for me, some don't.
Spokes, probably DT which I believe are European manufacture. Or, Sapim. But, no, I won't go with the cheapest supplier just so I can save $5 on the cost of my spokes. Repairing or rebuilding a wheel is too much of a hassle to save $5 upfront.
I haven't started selling wheels and bikes... hopefully shortly. But I will not go by a business model of designing stuff last until the warranty expires, then to break, and require replacement (and hopefully more sales).
04-23-15, 04:54 AM
#45
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
Kinlin XR-200s beat Velocity Aeroheads all to hell. Rounder. Flatter. Lighter. They just don't offer an offset rear, which would really be beneficial.
04-23-15, 06:30 AM
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,704
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
If I could only find a aftermarket hub that had at least 40 mm L.C.F spacing for triplet lacing I could accept rpenmanparker's theory on part selection. My criteria takes me outside the box.
04-23-15, 06:57 AM
#47
~>~
I just purchased a new set of wheels as a Project.
Scope: Purchase new Wheelset for CF Merckx
Requirements:
700C clincher <1600G complete
10/11 cog Shimano compatible freehub
Cup/cone bearings
Carbon rim w/ AL brake track
<50 Rim height, no Min
24F 28R Max, no Min Aero Profile Spokes
Tubeless not required
Budget: $700 NLC
Timeline: May 1 Completion
Shimano RS81-C24
Project delivered within Requirements, <Budget on Time.
Using Project Management methodology is an effective tool to get what you need/want for what you are willing to pay when you need it.
-Bandera
Scope: Purchase new Wheelset for CF Merckx
Requirements:
700C clincher <1600G complete
10/11 cog Shimano compatible freehub
Cup/cone bearings
Carbon rim w/ AL brake track
<50 Rim height, no Min
24F 28R Max, no Min Aero Profile Spokes
Tubeless not required
Budget: $700 NLC
Timeline: May 1 Completion
Shimano RS81-C24
Project delivered within Requirements, <Budget on Time.
Using Project Management methodology is an effective tool to get what you need/want for what you are willing to pay when you need it.
-Bandera
04-23-15, 07:09 AM
#48
Speechless
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Central NY
Posts: 8,842
Bikes: Felt Brougham, Lotus Prestige, Cinelli Xperience,
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 163 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 39 Times
in
16 Posts
I have a theory....
My theory is that Robert's OP is entirely his opinion, with no theoretical elements. The gist of his opinion seems to be that for any one given set of parameters (width, depth, material, OLD, freehub type, spoke count, build method), price should be the sole determinant of purchase selection, and the least expensive option should be selected.
Where I understand the premise, and applaud his singularity of approach, I do not see any means to move this to a universally applied norm.
But that is just my opinion.
Where I understand the premise, and applaud his singularity of approach, I do not see any means to move this to a universally applied norm.
But that is just my opinion.
04-23-15, 07:48 AM
#49
Senior Member
Interesting pick. Those are exactly what one of our fastest local racers rides on most of the time.
I just purchased a new set of wheels as a Project.
Scope: Purchase new Wheelset for CF Merckx
Requirements:
700C clincher <1600G complete
10/11 cog Shimano compatible freehub
Cup/cone bearings
Carbon rim w/ AL brake track
<50 Rim height, no Min
24F 28R Max, no Min Aero Profile Spokes
Tubeless not required
Budget: $700 NLC
Timeline: May 1 Completion
Shimano RS81-C24
Project delivered within Requirements, <Budget on Time.
Using Project Management methodology is an effective tool to get what you need/want for what you are willing to pay when you need it.
-Bandera
Scope: Purchase new Wheelset for CF Merckx
Requirements:
700C clincher <1600G complete
10/11 cog Shimano compatible freehub
Cup/cone bearings
Carbon rim w/ AL brake track
<50 Rim height, no Min
24F 28R Max, no Min Aero Profile Spokes
Tubeless not required
Budget: $700 NLC
Timeline: May 1 Completion
Shimano RS81-C24
Project delivered within Requirements, <Budget on Time.
Using Project Management methodology is an effective tool to get what you need/want for what you are willing to pay when you need it.
-Bandera
04-23-15, 07:55 AM
#50
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times
in
36 Posts
My theory is that Robert's OP is entirely his opinion, with no theoretical elements. The gist of his opinion seems to be that for any one given set of parameters (width, depth, material, OLD, freehub type, spoke count, build method), price should be the sole determinant of purchase selection, and the least expensive option should be selected.
Where I understand the premise, and applaud his singularity of approach, I do not see any means to move this to a universally applied norm.
But that is just my opinion.
Where I understand the premise, and applaud his singularity of approach, I do not see any means to move this to a universally applied norm.
But that is just my opinion.