rpenmanparker 

It just doesn't matter. The name on the wheel, that is. It is of no importance.

Someone is asking right now in another thread whether they should get the ABC wheels or the XYZ wheels. It doesn't matter per se. So what does matter? The specifications pure and simple. If you know what you need and want, you can research the wheels specifications and get the cheapest embodiment. The names are unimportant. Let's stop there for a minute while I make a disclaimer. I am not talking about no-name Chinese carbon. It may be okay, but is still in its own category. I am talking about name brand stuff and the no-name/store brand stuff (aluminum and carbon)from Taiwan such as sold by Bike Hub Store, BDop, and all over ebay.

So what do I mean? Do you want clincher or tubular? Check! What material do you want, aluminum, carbon, or carbon with an aluminum brake track? Check! How deep the profile? Check? How wide the top cross section? Check! How many spokes? Check! Aero spokes or round? Blingy hubs or plain vanilla? Loaded with decals or subdued? What weight? Check! Check! Check! Off the shelf, custom built, or home built? Check to all the above! Etc.

If you could have a list of every possibility and apply the above filters to it, you would obtain the reduced selection that exactly fit your requirements. From such a selection you could easily pick a winner without further advice, and my belief is that the best choice would be the cheapest one offered.

You don't need to ask someone for advice. You just need to know what you characteristics you want the wheels to have. I wouldn't be surprised if a pretty high fraction of folks in the market for new wheels wouldn't end up specifying wheels so similar to what they were already riding that buying a new set would be foolish.

Pass the popcorn and let's discuss.

Psimet2001 

I'd disagree, for obvious reasons, in 1 distinct way - I can hand the same batch of components to 1 person who claims they can build wheels and another person who claims they can build wheels and I can get 2 completely different wheels.

That difference has a value, I believe, but many claim anyone who assemble a wheel can build a wheel. I get into this argument with framebuilders all the time. "All you guys do is stick your frame tubes together. Once you have the tubes and if someone has shown you how to braze then anyone can do it. It's simply a matter of what tubes and lengths you are using." They don't like that. It holds true in all things.

We've done a lot of analysis of what happens in the wheel business. Most brands simply try to skirt all of this by coming up with something they can say is all their own or proprietary. It's the only way to take the commoditized part of wheels (what you are suggesting everything about a wheel is) and take it out of the equation making the discussion and purchase decision about the business and the brand and other ancillary factors.

wphamilton

The level of tolerance in machine assembled wheels vs assembled by hand. I think that also must depend on the manufactured component tolerance, which I understand can change over multiple factory runs. Dies and carbon molds degrading for example. I cite the changing weights of carbon rims for my rationale, and presuming that some changes in spoke installation would be beneficial since other characteristics may change as well.

Is that something to consider regarding the quality of wheels? It seem to me that the more established brands and wheel building specialists are more likely to have control standards equipped to deal with this.

Blue Belly

Only thing I have to add is that experience is a factor. A company like Campagnolo(just as an example) has been building/designing hubs/spokes/rims for a long time now. Tough to argue that knowledge. Of course, a smart company can do research & copy certain ideas/theories... If you want an example
, I had an early set of Zipp 404's. The rear hub was crap. Poor design. I destroyed & rebuilt it a few times before just flat giving up on it. Replaced the hub & it gave me some great miles.

gsa103

Your basic premise doesn't account for wheels being a set item. Wheels really boil down to two categories, custom sets and factory builds. A custom wheel builder has a selection of rims, spokes and hubs to build with, to build a wheel suited to an individual rider. Alternatively, factory built wheels are designed and tested as an assembly. Comparing them is very difficult because the rims and hubs of many factory rims & hubs are not sold individually. If you want a Shimano C24 rim or straight-pull Dura-Ace hub, you're buying the whole wheelset. This means that many of the options you might like to check overlap or are mutually exclusive.

rpenmanparker 

Yes, but the considerstions in the above two posts don't indicate a difference between say Shimano wheels and HED wheels. You could easily check off the filter item related to hand-built or famous name and obviate the concerns that have been expressed. That is why I included an etc. in my list.

rpenmanparker 

I didn't suggest that all combinations and permutations would be available, but rather that on's preferences would pare down the list of choices to the ones which were both avaialable and met the requirements. If anything it is absolutely not about picking and choosing brands of stuff. That is the whole point.

Blue Belly

I don't think it's foolish. We want our machines to be a little better. Often times, a lot better! We all know there is a certain amount white whale chasing. Truth is the only way to know is to put them on the bike & put some miles in

rpenmanparker 

Okay, I will make another disclaimer: if you check off the custom-built box, getting some knowledgeable advice about the best builders is appropriate. Once you settle on your builder, however, applying the "filters" to the selection of parts makes sense. The part brands and models that survive the filtration process are likely equivalent enough that price can be used to make a selection. By that point the builder will be advising the buyer anyway, so nothing too stupid is likely to happen.

therhodeo

How much performance difference is there though given the differences between builders? Especially when you account for how different some tires perform?

Phil_gretz

Wheels are all about who built them.

Bikes are all about who rides them.

Bike performance/operations are about who maintains them.

People matter much more than things...

WhyFi

Wouldn't this depend upon how far you choose to drill down? Warm-blooded, hairy, four limbs and big ears and a tail - both a mouse and an elephant could check off all of those parameters. You may only choose five criteria that are important to you, but someone else may have a preference for ten or twelve or... whatever. Maybe they want a specific alloy or one rim profile catches their fancy more than others, maybe they want a thicker rim bed where the holes are drilled... again, there's a ton of differentiation to be made, it just depends upon how critically you look at them.

I've long held this belief, not just in cycling, but in just about any hobby, but there are a couple of issues: it's predicated upon having an understanding of when and why certain characteristics are beneficial/preferred (I think that some people want to understand, at least superficially, what makes something better, but others just want to reap the benefits) and, of course, there's no comprehensive list out there - drawing upon the cumulative knowledge of enthusiasts is far easier (well, for the person seeking recommendations... it can get obviously get frustratingly repetitive for those providing the advice).

BenPS

All other points aside, you also assume that the person picking all of these characteristics knows better than anyone else in the world. Even if they are your wheels, who is to say that you know exactly what would be good for you, just because you read about how things work on the internet. A pro wheel builder might suggests things different from what you think you want, because of lots of experience. Your situation is classic [customer walks in to a bike shop, and says, "I want these strange custom wheels because the internet says so."]

Pirkaus

A member of the greater 41 would need to make a decision by themselves, and we know that's unpossible.

Why research and read reviews, apply said filters and find "what's best for you", when you can ask others to do the work for you.

himespau 

One of the many problems with your idea (and it's not a bad one to try and get rid of the branding) is that not all rims with the same general characteristics are necessarily the same. Sure the unbranded chinese rims on eBay may be made in the same factory from the same molds during an off shift as the name brand ones, but they might not be. Or they may be QC rejects. Or, or, or. I'm not saying I'll only buy name brand stuff, but the assumption is that all <component X> with the same general features are essentially interchangeable and I'm not sure that's true. Just like two wheelbuilders may be different, two aerospokes might be different.

therhodeo

Truth

rpenmanparker 

That is the "full service butcher shop" mentality, which I have never had. Nothing wrong with it. It is just not me. I pick my steak from the self-service case, or better yet, I buy whole cuts in Cry-O-Vac and break them down at home. Some preliminary research is necessary for sure, but I have no desire to be led by the merchant. Different strokes for different folks.

Pirkaus

Could not this same theory be applied to bicycle purchasing as well?
Determine the filters, apply, and purchase. Free enterprise will never be the same once the world discovers the theory of logic applied purchasing!

rpenmanparker 

I don't think you understood what I was saying. First, the Chinese rims were excluded from the discussion. Second, I have no desire to get rid of branding. I never said that. What I am trying to avoid is using the branding as a replacement for the specifications in making the decision.

Pirkaus

Being led by the merchant is a slippery slope. Relying on someone with a vested interest in the profit from the purchase is unsound at best, regardless of the trust the person may invoke.

WhyFi

There's a lot of space between being "led by the merchant," and presuming that your preliminary research has endowed you with more knowledge than someone with a ton of experience. I usually like to know my ass from my elbow when I walk in to a shop, but it's not necessarily because I want to know exactly what I want from the get-go. For me, that knowledge is usually to narrow down the selection to the right ballpark and to give me an idea if the person assisting me is credible enough to guide my decision (as a salesperson, I know the value of a good salesperson).

rpenmanparker 

Fair enough.

Pirkaus

I am not discounting the benefit of a good sales person, just that some may put their interests before yours.

RJM

Sometimes asking someone for advice is an attempt at finding what characteristics are important to you in a wheelset and having them recommend certain products they offer to fit those characteristics is ideally the way it should happen. Anyway, I do think the brand is important. At the very least there is a bling factor involved and that could matter to someone, but also, certain makers take more time to perfect the wheel build for you and your personal needs.

milkbaby

In one respect I agree that the label on the wheel is not so important, but it can also be a general identifier of certain qualities. I would expect a Campy wheel to have great hubs that last a long time versus say a Vuelta wheel with less reliable hubs. If you think aero is important, then you know companies like Zipp or Hed probably put a lot more effort into reducing aero drag of their wheels versus say Mavic.

I do agree that most people overthink it especially considering their wheelset needs. Probably 65% of the 41 are going to be perfectly fine on stock wheels, 30% probably need stouter wheels because they are clydes, and then maybe 5% are racers who will choose wheels based on the events they race.