SRAM Red 2013 Evolution
02-13-12, 11:47 AM
#26
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With this kind of half-arsed, low-budget analysis, I suggest that you guys keep your day jobs.
It is of course true at this point that SRAM has no electronic shifting system. The significance of this fact for SRAM's short-term competitiveness is probably limited. Shimano's bread and butter is still in cable-activated systems. SRAM definitely needs to have an electronic system in development, but the fact that it's not out yet doesn't mean anything at the moment. As for Campagnolo, they simply aren't a major competitor for either SRAM or Shimano, and if you don't understand this you can't hope to make a realistic analysis of the component industry. If you're worried about one of these three companies failing at some point in the not-too-distant future, you should worry about Campy. SRAM and Shimano compete somewhat superficially on technology, and compete extremely fiercely on OEM specification and supply. SRAM was extremely good at this BEFORE they entered the road component market. It isn't that surprising that their expertise in the OEM market has translated to enormous success in the road components market. The key here is not just cool new technology: it is cool new technology that they can bring to market in large volumes at a price that makes manufacturers want to use SRAM parts to spec their bikes. This is why Campy isn't even running.
Incidentally, for all the hand-waving about pro teams buying competing groups rather than using sponsor SRAM groups, it is Shimano and SRAM that dominate the peloton. Campagnolo is used by, what, three Pro Teams at this point? It is true that SRAM has some specific weaknesses, but they are doing a lot better than Campy (see above, re: Campy Is Not A Major Competitor In This Market).
As for comparing SRAM to the other two in pure technical terms, even in the absence of an electronic system, they are looking pretty good. For one, they are willing to experiment with interesting new ideas, which is what propelled Shimano to dominance in the '80s. For another, they are in pole position on hydraulic disc brakes for road bikes, which, for all you deride them as "old tech" is a big deal. And from a technological perspective, they are better poised to move in this new direction with both mechanical groups and a hypothetical future electronic group set (and, as evidence that this is a significant shift in technology, Shimano has a road disc system in the works as well). I could be wrong, but I believe the SRAM is the only manufacturer whose mechanical shifting mechanism will allow the use of a hydraulic master cylinder in a mechanical lever. I'm pretty sure that Shimano won't be able to squeeze hydraulics into a mechanical lever, meaning an electronic-only system, which will limit the short-term adoption of their system. Which obviously puts SRAM in an advantageous position, notwithstanding that they are going to be first to market with a hydraulic road disc anyway.
So I think SRAM is doing just fine, thank you very much. They've got good tech, extremely good operations, and a design team that is willing to try thinking different from the competition. I wouldn't worry too much about them being left behind.
It is of course true at this point that SRAM has no electronic shifting system. The significance of this fact for SRAM's short-term competitiveness is probably limited. Shimano's bread and butter is still in cable-activated systems. SRAM definitely needs to have an electronic system in development, but the fact that it's not out yet doesn't mean anything at the moment. As for Campagnolo, they simply aren't a major competitor for either SRAM or Shimano, and if you don't understand this you can't hope to make a realistic analysis of the component industry. If you're worried about one of these three companies failing at some point in the not-too-distant future, you should worry about Campy. SRAM and Shimano compete somewhat superficially on technology, and compete extremely fiercely on OEM specification and supply. SRAM was extremely good at this BEFORE they entered the road component market. It isn't that surprising that their expertise in the OEM market has translated to enormous success in the road components market. The key here is not just cool new technology: it is cool new technology that they can bring to market in large volumes at a price that makes manufacturers want to use SRAM parts to spec their bikes. This is why Campy isn't even running.
Incidentally, for all the hand-waving about pro teams buying competing groups rather than using sponsor SRAM groups, it is Shimano and SRAM that dominate the peloton. Campagnolo is used by, what, three Pro Teams at this point? It is true that SRAM has some specific weaknesses, but they are doing a lot better than Campy (see above, re: Campy Is Not A Major Competitor In This Market).
As for comparing SRAM to the other two in pure technical terms, even in the absence of an electronic system, they are looking pretty good. For one, they are willing to experiment with interesting new ideas, which is what propelled Shimano to dominance in the '80s. For another, they are in pole position on hydraulic disc brakes for road bikes, which, for all you deride them as "old tech" is a big deal. And from a technological perspective, they are better poised to move in this new direction with both mechanical groups and a hypothetical future electronic group set (and, as evidence that this is a significant shift in technology, Shimano has a road disc system in the works as well). I could be wrong, but I believe the SRAM is the only manufacturer whose mechanical shifting mechanism will allow the use of a hydraulic master cylinder in a mechanical lever. I'm pretty sure that Shimano won't be able to squeeze hydraulics into a mechanical lever, meaning an electronic-only system, which will limit the short-term adoption of their system. Which obviously puts SRAM in an advantageous position, notwithstanding that they are going to be first to market with a hydraulic road disc anyway.
So I think SRAM is doing just fine, thank you very much. They've got good tech, extremely good operations, and a design team that is willing to try thinking different from the competition. I wouldn't worry too much about them being left behind.
02-14-12, 06:08 AM
#27
Peloton Shelter Dog
Thanks for the dose of reality... Personally, I did not like SRAM before due to three things: I hate double-tap and I could not tolerate the crappy front shifting and relatively noisy drivetrain. New RED has apparently fixed at least two of those. I'll give it another try and see if I like it.
I'd rather give my dough to an American company anyway.
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02-14-12, 07:43 AM
#28
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That's a pretty sweet looking groupset. I just bought an Apex equipped Allez and am really loving the Double Tap. Looking forward to becoming a total SRAM convert.
02-14-12, 09:23 AM
#29
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Oh, a new groupset? Cool. Can't wait for the used prices to finally go down. The prices on used Sram are ridiculous.
02-14-12, 12:40 PM
#30
Peloton Shelter Dog
As long as idiots like you buy used bike crap, the prices will never go down.
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02-14-12, 01:06 PM
#31
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Let's face it, several years ago SRAM comes out of nowhere, lighter, cheaper, and arguably prettier than Shimano (at the time Shimano didn't have hidden cables).
IMO SRAM's biggest problem is not being able to differentiate their groups (Rival/Apex offer AMAZING value for weight). They've also done incremental improvements, what were you expecting, 11 speeds just because? They've improved marginally on the current system, maintained low weight, and are experimenting with brakes. Overall decent upgrades. While I think Di2/Ui2 are great, they're also needlessly complex (batteries, motors, etc.).
IMO SRAM's biggest problem is not being able to differentiate their groups (Rival/Apex offer AMAZING value for weight). They've also done incremental improvements, what were you expecting, 11 speeds just because? They've improved marginally on the current system, maintained low weight, and are experimenting with brakes. Overall decent upgrades. While I think Di2/Ui2 are great, they're also needlessly complex (batteries, motors, etc.).
02-14-12, 01:10 PM
#32
Peloton Shelter Dog
They are arguably simpler from an end user standpoint.
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02-14-12, 01:13 PM
#33
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02-14-12, 01:17 PM
#34
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Im a SRAM fanboy, but starting to go back to Shimano being that it isn't all chromed out and is electronic. The only reason I'd buy SRAM again is if they went electronic.
02-14-12, 04:20 PM
#35
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02-14-12, 04:22 PM
#36
Peloton Shelter Dog
I'm telling you, eBay your old bike crap, it will amaze you.
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02-14-12, 04:33 PM
#37
Senior Member
I'm sure SRAM knows all of this. I wonder how much of the new Red will trickle down. The new changes are pretty compelling to me.
02-14-12, 04:44 PM
#38
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Red: Shifters
Rival: Crankset, Front Derailleur
Apex: Cassette, Rear Derailleur
Planet X: Brakes
Cables: Yokozuna
Chain: KMC X10SL
yummm (and for less then $1,000 new)
Rival: Crankset, Front Derailleur
Apex: Cassette, Rear Derailleur
Planet X: Brakes
Cables: Yokozuna
Chain: KMC X10SL
yummm (and for less then $1,000 new)
02-14-12, 04:52 PM
#39
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Just because SRAM doesnt cater specifically to you (looking for electronic and 11 speed shifting) doesnt mean they havent created their own niche and place in the market.
They seem to have the mid-range pricepoint covered with OEM bikes that come in full Rival and apex groups rather than shimano mismatched FSA stuff and tektro brakes.
I ride both shimano and SRAM. My DA 7800 shifts smooth and flawlessly.... but then again, I race Rival and havent had to adjust anything or misshift in 2 years.
As far as advancement, wasnt it SRAM that introduced the 2x10 MTB scene with shimano to follow? Also, apex and their long cage derailleurs basically made triple cranksets obsolete as well as having separate triple shifters. It also made it possible to run a wider cassette for those mountain stages and hill climb races.
I think SRAM has made an extraordinary impact on the cycling world in just a matter of a few years....
They seem to have the mid-range pricepoint covered with OEM bikes that come in full Rival and apex groups rather than shimano mismatched FSA stuff and tektro brakes.
I ride both shimano and SRAM. My DA 7800 shifts smooth and flawlessly.... but then again, I race Rival and havent had to adjust anything or misshift in 2 years.
As far as advancement, wasnt it SRAM that introduced the 2x10 MTB scene with shimano to follow? Also, apex and their long cage derailleurs basically made triple cranksets obsolete as well as having separate triple shifters. It also made it possible to run a wider cassette for those mountain stages and hill climb races.
I think SRAM has made an extraordinary impact on the cycling world in just a matter of a few years....
02-14-12, 04:54 PM
#40
Senior Member
I will speak with my money. Anxiously waiting for new RED Front Derailleur. (already have current RED set with DuraAce FD...)
02-14-12, 04:58 PM
#41
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Red Shifters, $400 - $40 (sell the GORE packaged cables that come in the box, they go for about $40 on eBay)
Would also do Rival rear derailleur (usually dirt cheap on Amazon, like $60) and Force Brakes (since they're nearly identical to Red).
But yeah, VA_Esquire, very close to my prefered setup. Down to the Yokozuna cables
I should add for Hiro11 that Red shifters offer Zero Loss on the front and rear, the other groups only offer it on the front.
02-14-12, 05:00 PM
#42
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Yes, this! If you do the auction timing right, in some cases you can upgrade/get new components for next to nothing. I can't believe how many people are crazy enough to pay almost as much for used shifters as for new ones?!?
02-14-12, 05:07 PM
#43
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I said Apex cassette and r.d. for the 11-32 capability. If it was a crit build I'd go with a recon 11-23 AL cassette and rival rear derailleur. The new Red is appealing, but nothing to do backflips over....
02-15-12, 12:53 AM
#44
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Forgot about the WiFli feature of the Apex bits (and longer cage rival). In the end I think SRAM may have hurt themselves by offering too much on Red, making it very difficult to create a substantial improvement. Keep in mine that 7800->7900 was actually considered a downgrade by many, and except for hidden cabling, the entire latest generation of mechanical Shimano isn't heads/shoulders over the previous generation, only some carbon bits, and updated brakes. I would consider the latest SRAM Red offering to be similar in that it's a small incremental jump. Hopefully they are working on something bigger for the next few years.
02-15-12, 10:27 AM
#45
Chases Dogs for Sport
