I need help identifying this frame - anyone have any clue what it is? What year maybe? Who could have built it?

It's the "What is this?" post on my blog page (sorry to link away from here, but the fotos are there...)

https://askrobdaily.blogspot.com/

Thanks for the input...

Any pics of the seat cluster? Do you know what the seat post diameter would be? That would help.

It has some similarities to a 1960-ish Bianchi Competizione frame I have, but I don't that's a march, because the Comps had pressed-in headset races in the head tube, and this one doesn't. Also, the fork crown doesn't match up. The rest of the lugwork looks very similar, though.

My best guess is that it is from the late 1950s to early 1960s and is either a top-of-the-line frame or close to it. The lug work looks to be in line with that guesstimate. But the braze-ons that are there (especially the cable housing stops for the bottom bracket area and the pump pegs under the top tube) and the ones that are not say "before the late 1960's" to me.

Now will come the posts form more knowledgeable folks who will disabuse me of my ignorance.

In any event, it looks like a keeper, something well worth some effort to clean up.

What is the width of the bottom bracket shell?

Do the dropouts have "Campagnolo" (or any maker's name) stamped into the clamping surfaces? The presence of a threaded derailleur hanger on a frame of that era is further evidence that it's not just a crappy bike-boom-era frame. The lugwork is nice -- agree it's a keeper whoever made it.

Thanks for the help - keep it coming. I don't have the frame yet - It's on it's way. I'll post more pics and measurements when I get it. Was thinking perhaps it would be a vintage Cinelli, but only loosely, since the chances were slim. Definately looked interesting though.

Anyway, most of what I do day to day is posted on https://askrobdaily.blogspot.com/ which is read mostly by......who knows..

...but it's a good way to keep a log of the stuff that goes in one ear and out the other. For the moment, I am working on a Colnago, and then when this comes, I'll have to do something with it, but the important thing to to research it's origins...

thanks again

OK - I'll post more pics on my blog now that I have the actual frame. It's fantasic - Couldn't be happier - at 60 dollars, plus 20 to ship it...Not sure how good that is, but sound cheep to me...

https://askrobdaily.blogspot.com/

I'm posting a bunch of random stuff these days, so juts croll and look for the red vintage frame. I'm trying to figure out what it is.

Anyway, here's what I know:

Fork threads - ID 22mm, OD 25mm, Height from top of fork crown 233mm

Seat Post - ID 27mm

BB Shell - ID 35mm, Over all Width 70 mm

There was a bottom bracket cup on the drive side, that after a little rust removal, I found out was a "Magistroni Senior" Bottom bracket. Threads on the drive side were "lefty loosey"

on the top of the right fork crown, there is a little cross design that seems to be painted on - looks like two X's = like XX , but the two x's touh each other - if that makes sense.

The paint was a silver paint with a light film of red over it - maybe original? the lugs were outlined originally in what looks like yellow. Rear Drops are 120mm. and there is only a serial # on th bottom of the BB Shell. The forks weigh a ton, relative to the weight of the frame...And clearly the cable braze ons under the downtube screams for either bar-end shifters or for stem shifters, right?

Again - Any help identifying this would be helpful.

Oh - and the Rear Derailler Hanger is threaded, and the Drops are stamped campagnolo front and rear.


Once i identify the bike - I can start to put together an ideal list of components - of the right vintage and nationality - and start to assemble - very excited...

70mm BB shell = Italian....That's a start!

Right - I was excited too about the magistroni Senior BB cup - I suppose that should help to put it somewhere around late fifties right?

Does anyone know anything about these lugs?

Or the serial number on the bottom of the shell?

the lugs and crown *might* be Cinelli products, how about a shot of the underside of the lugs? I think the XX on the crown is simply decorative. It's clearly a high-end Italian-made frame given the Campy ends and build quality...but I don't know who or even an exact date, but I'd be surprised if as early as late '50s...more like late '60s to my eye. Stay caps remind me of some Bianchis but...not enough to put it in that column.
Now some details confuse me: those cable guides and that chainstay bridge has a boss for fender mounting...are there eyelets on the forkends? Me thinks it had barcons and fenders, and a frame pump...unusual for an Italian.

thanks for the quick reply - all this is very helpful...

When did bar-end shifters begin to be used?

Nice Duchamp pic, btw....I like that...

Any thoughts on the steer tube? Does it need to be replaced? Or should I wait to make that decision until it strips when installing a Head Set?

I found an Identical (almost) Colnago fork from a Colnago super on ebay - I'll post pics on my blog...
https://askrobdaily.blogspot.com/

I'm actaully getting some responses from there as well. One guy is telling me that since there was a magistroni BB on the bike and by the rust, that seems to have been original to the bike, that with the braze-ons for the pump, and the top tube cabling, plus the Magistroni, this would be from before the years that Campagnolo forced virtually all racers to use entire gruppos. So he was saying pre-1962. I guess campy decided that they wouldn't sponsor anyone that didn't use all campy components on their bike, so if they wanted free parts, the magistroni cranks, headsets, BB's etc would have to go...

What other marks, measurments or features can be used to identify? I know if I listed it for sale as a Cinelli, I would be proven wrong - so maybe lets find out what it is NOT...Any takers?

I would treat it with oxlic acid and clean it with a wire brush to get a better idea about the condition of the threads. If they are in good enough shape, consider having your LBS chase the threads before installing your headset.

Nice frame by the way.


stan.

I've got it soaking in Barkeeper's friend now - upside down so that the Fork blades don't fill up with water through the air holes near the drops - there is a little thread missing in one spot, but the rest are ok. I'm slightly worried - having the local bike shop chase the threads is a good idea. Thanks for that - I was thnking about just chasing them with a steal nut from an old headset...

I am hoping to find an old Magistroni Senior headset to go with the frame - I thnk it's age-appropriate and should cost less than Campagnolo from same era. Anyway - probably doesn't need to be too tight - so I should be ok - otherwise, this one goes off to Joe Bell too...

I believe you're correct that it's not a "typical" Cinelli, since even the model B which used a non-sloping crown had the signature fastback seat stays...and I agree that the steerer threads might turn out just fine but Barkeepers Friend just ain't strong enough, get some wood bleach crystals (oxalic acid) or Rust Mort and submerge. Looking at early 60s Italian bikes, most seem to have more ornate lugs and chrome (!) neither of which this has...and whatever Campy was doing to the pro riders may not have any bearing on what a private citizen could have on his bike. This might be a custom frame built to the customer's spec and even Cinelli was known to have taken such "bespoke" orders. I still want to know if the lugs have a single hole in the bottoms, which would nail them as Cinelli lugs.

The rear brake bridge looks the same as those on my Columbus tubed Massi and Viner frames, which are from the late '79's early '90's but the fork crown and steerer and pump pegs indicate an earlier build. Do the brake bridge and fork crown accept a recessed Allen key brake mounting bolt, or are they parallel all the way through, to accept nut-on fitting brakes? This would help to date it roughly. In any event, it looks like a quality frame and Italian in style - although it could easily be a "Belgian Italian", hand built under licence in Northern Belgium. This could explain the apparent anomalies. An interesting find.

My money is on it being a Colnago. Italian BB. Club pantographs. Campy BB.

definately not a colnago - You may be confusing the bikes on the blog...

https://askrobdaily.blogspot.com/

Talking about the red one....

Anyway - On the other post above - What does this mean?:

"I still want to know if the lugs have a single hole in the bottoms, which would nail them as Cinelli lugs."

single hole where?

I'm amazed that we havn't figured it out yet - The site meter on my website has gone from vitually zero to huge numbers over nite - so with all the collective minds....you'd think...well, I guess I'm not much help, since I know nothing of what I am talking about...but regardless, it's fun to research...

some of them never get ID-ed...
but the Cinelli SC lugs (which these resemble) have a single hole in the bottom "flange" of the head lugs and the seat lug, maybe 6mm diameter, if you turn the frame upsidedown they either are there plain as day or not. Still doesn't mean that Cinelli may have made some without the holes, or a builder could have filled them (but why would he?). What ever you bought it's a good frame at a bargain price. You might get more info if you expand the search to the guys on the CR list (go to Classic Rendezvous and follow the instructions, choose the digest option and be sure to sign off completely or you'll be booted)

I'll take a look again for the holes - you are talking about outside the tube, on the lugs? A 6mm hole? or inside the tubes...

anyway - I'll look. It would be fantastic to thing that I came across a vintage cinelli out of the blue, assuming it was a nice bike, but not anything special...Regardless, it's going to get built up nicely and hopefully, put to good use...

picture worth 1000 words....
But I made a typo, these are Cinelli CS lugs, not SC

Not necessarily. It looks like it just ran derailleur housing under the bottom bracket instead of using a brazed or screwed-on cable guide.

It's definitely Italian or Italian influenced. It's just that the combination of fork and crown, lugwork, and seat cluster look like nothing I've seen before.

I'd like to see its profile with wheels on, to get an idea of the clearances, frame angles, and bottom bracket drop.

ah-so: I did not realize there was a second series of photos under the first in the blog, and your pointing out the cable-housing idea made me go back and look. I agree that this bike used cable housing to direct the shifter cables, but the housing probably ran on the top-side of the BB shell, note where the stop for the RD is on the chainstay. And that shot of the BB shell leads me to think these probably are Cinelli lugs and BB...plus the frame looks like it could be an earlier product now: early '60s seems likelier.

While researching Cinelli I came across this very cool blog with great info and vintage photos:

Italian Cycling Journal

From the Cinelli portion of the blog:
more grist for the mill...

stan

It's not a Cinelli.

Maybe something like an older Olmo or Bottecchia?