Plimogz

I'm thinking about buying a 29er for winter riding; in particular I'm looking at getting a 2009 Gary Fisher Mamba. In light of the fact that in winter the temperature around where I live can dip well below -20C I'm thinking that I'd be better off replacing the front suspension (RockShox Dart 3 29") with a regular steel fork and would also rather switch out the mechanical brakes (Shimano M415) with some hydraulics.

Now. Here's what's giving me some pause:

the LBS has made me the following proposal: they switch the forks, (I think he told me the one he was showing me was a rocky mountain, or something, I don't quite remember. looked like a pretty generic steel fork with disc mounting tabs, in any case) and they replace the M415's with Hayes Sole hydraulics and the Mamba which was $945 before the mods ends up costing me $1000 instead.

so to resume: Mamba($945) -(minus) [ (Dart 3)&(M415) ] +(plus) [ (steel fork)&(Hayes Sole) ] = Mamba($1000) ???

I'm pretty sure the guy's just trying to screw me over. But I'd really like it if some of you who are more familiar with components such as these would give me your opinions.

bikinfool

So he's supposed to swap the parts out for free? What does he do with the parts he takes off? Give them to you for an extra bonus? Besides, you're getting a better fork and brakes for $55.

Plimogz

I'm thinking that he keeps the original parts which he's taking off. and subs in the steel fork and the hydraulics and charges me 55$ for the difference in values and his time.

Hey. maybe you're right and I just misunderstood what he was proposing. seriously, if I'd be operating under the impression that he was saying 1000$ for the bike like I want it and those "bonus" parts too I'd pretty much jump on it; I certainly wouldn't think he was trying to rip me off.

BUT. for the purpose of this thread, and because I'm pretty sure this is the proposed deal, I'm asking about the case where he keeps the Dart3 and the M415. And what I get the the modded Mamba, no bonuses, for 1000$.

craigcraigcraig

still better. you are getting upgraded parts for only 55 bucks more. that's not a rip off. brakes seem to retail for about 55 bucks alone and you don't have to do the work. or pay anyone else to.

Plimogz

maybe this would be a better question: is a set of Hayes Sole worth a set of M415 + 150$ ??? and I ask this because the guy told me the suspension fork was worth roughly 250$, and the steel one, 150$. so. looking at this part by part and assuming that labor is free, ('cuz I'd just as soon do it myself, but he was proposing that he would do it, to sweeten the deal, as it were) at least that's how I understood it.

the bike costs 945$.
he removes the shocks (250$) and keeps them
and installs a steel fork (150$)
he removes the M415 and keeps them
and installs some Hayes Soles.

Incidentally, some cursory googling of the Hayes Sole has yielded such shining reviews as:

"Weaknesses:No stopping ability under pressure, which is fairly important for brakes! --Mark",
"Weaknesses:Do not use if you want to stop,; use only to slow down. Make sure you bring a pair of ear plugs after the 5th use. --sirromfej",
"Strengths:Good selling point for a bike to at least look like its got breaks!! / Weaknesses:They may cause death! --Hawk78"

craigcraigcraig

maybe you should have bought the bike then upgraded it yourself haha

Plimogz

I haven't bought anything. Yet.

I'm in the midst of purchasing a bike. and I like the mamba, and I like the shop where i found it. but I'm getting the distinct feeling that the guy is trying to take me for a 100$ or so on the deal.

How much is a steel fork worth anyhow?

craigcraigcraig

https://www.google.com/products?rlz=1...ed=0CBcQrQQwAA

fork

search a bit. not very hard.

Plimogz

oddly enough, i had searched quite a lot. So thanks for the info!

It does seem to underscore the fact that what the guy is proposing is pretty ridiculous though, doesn't it? I mean, if a very good steel for goes for, what, 100$ ? those Hayes Sole would have to be some really quite *****ing brakes for me to hand him a suspension fork, some shimano mechs PLUS 55$ for him to do me the service of swapping out the parts. Heh. I hate salesmen.

bikinfool

MSRP of a fork like the Dart 3 and what it will sell for aren't necessarily the same thing, especially with a cut steerer (what size frame we talking here?). Cheap mechanicals vs the hydraulics you have no idea about? Well, who knows. You're shopping price point instead of function (well, to an extent component-wise), so who knows wtf is best for you? I'd still go for a good rigid fork over that *** Dart in any case. Ask him about a hydraulic set that you think is worthy. If it's a good price, buy it, if it's not a good price shop elsewhere. No one is "ripping you off" just by offering a deal you can either accept or not, grow up.

ps Wow, you can't even say P O S without being censored...

Zephyr11

Why don't you just get a Cobia instead? For the money you'd pay to upgrade, you can get a bike with a ton of upgrades, including a Tora and BB5's (and X.5's, and a 9-speed cassette, etc). Granted BB's aren't hydros, but they're probably just as good, if not better than Soles. You can always upgrade to hydros later on down the line.

Plimogz

the frame is a 19 inch (LG).

And I didn't say he ripped me off. I asked whether he was trying to rip me off in your opinion. Oh and bare in mind that I completely understand a small bike shop owner trying to squeeze every penny they can out of an unsuspecting customer. After all, I wouldn't blame a snake for stinging or a mountain cat for pouncing; that's what they do.
Still. I'd rather keep as much of my money for myself as reasonably possible, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, thanks.

Plimogz

Cobia huh? I'll look into that. I've got no idea what it's like. And I've already used some BB5's for a winter and the cable's did sometimes freeze. Mainly between below -15C and while I can accept that from my shifters, I think i may as well try out hydraulics which by many accounts that I've read won't be completely jammed once I'm done with a long climb during which i didn't have to touch the brakes -- only to notice that I've got no brakes on my way down because they've had ample time to freeze on the way up. True story. yeah I'm pretty sure I want hydros this time round.

Edit: The Cobia looks nice but I don't know that I want (or can) spend that much. besides. the frame with the frames being identical I can look forward to slowly upgrading the Mamba's components as they wear out to achieve a similar result in the end.

Thanks for the replies guys, you've given me some to think about.

Ashen

I don't even understand your complaint. You have a bike that goes for $945, you want some upgrades, the price with upgrades is $1000. This is reasonable. Nobody is ripping anyone off.

bikinfool

No you said you wanted to know if he's "trying to rip you" off to be more specific, I guess that's a big difference to you. You should try being a shop owner, would change your perspective in a hurry...so what non-"rip off" occupation will you have when you grow up?

Plimogz

Seeing as how I keep seeing that everyone considers the steel fork and the soles upgrades, I was wondering:

How much did you like using Hayes Sole Brakes?

Because from where I'm standing they look like cheap hydraulics which were poorly designed and are of shoddy quality. I'm not really sure how much of an upgrade they'd be. And I suspect that the shop owner's in a hurry to pawn them off of somebody who'll be impressed enough by the fact that they're hydraulic to not take a minute to notice that they're complete pieces of sh*t -- with no more performance than good reasonably priced mechs and with all the maintenance and cost issues associated with cheap hydros.

I wish I'd brought up all of these points up individually, looks like I shouldn't hope for a simple point by point analysis of a multifaceted question from the point of view of someone whose actually used the specific part(s) I'm wondering about. Oh and some guy (troll?) keeps telling me to grow up.

Anyway. Take it light guys. I'm off to ride my old bike and stop thinking about this new one.

JonathanGennick 

The Dart is not worth $250. I would not even buy a Dart, much less pay more than maybe $80 for one. Most 29er riders would want at least a Tora.

If I were the shop, I would look at this deal from the perspective of buying parts for resale. I have to buy a lightly-used Dart and resell it at a profit. I have to buy some mechanical brakes and resell those at a profit. I have to pay the labor costs for swapping the parts. Essentially, I would expect to make some money from the take-off parts that I was buying back from you. At the very least, I need to be absolutely certain I can break-even, which means I need to leave some margin for error.

$55 probably barely covers the labor cost of swapping the parts.

FWIW, you're doing the right thing in running rigid in winter. I'm less certain about swapping the brakes. I'd be tempted to keep the Shimanos. Were it me, I'd buy the bike as-is. Then I'd buy a rigid fork separately, and swap that in myself for winter riding, keeping the Dart for warmer weather.

ed 

Are you ever not a kcid B-fool?


OP...if the Hayes are worrying you...why not get different ones?

Plimogz

I'm pretty much planning to at this point but 24 hours ago standing at the counter, looking over the hayes brakeset he was offering me I didn't know what to make of it. And i certainly couldn't fathom why he was telling me that the steel fork he would sub-in was worth 150$ when the guy in the shop I'd visited just before told me that a rigid steel fork would cost me in the 50-60$ range.

(I guess I just didn't have enough knowledge on hand at the time to make an informed decision. man do I love the internet lol)

truth is, I just don't have much experience with this stuff and I'm trying to figure out what's what before I hand any money over to a shopkeeper because in my experience they're always more helpful while the bike is still on their hands and the money still in mine, instead of the other way round.

@ Jonathan: many thx for your imput! especially the part which looked at my question from the shop's POV; what you said was completely reasonable and made me realize that "ripping me off" was indeed somewhat strongly worded. Besides which, after a day of thinking this through I'm pretty much thinking exactly what you said; I get the bike stock, run the shimanos until I find something nice which I confident won't lock up once the deep freeze hits in Jan-Feb and try to find a Kona Project 2 29" in stock somewhere around here. And if I can't find one I know that another LBS has a no-name steel fork with disc mounts for like 50$ -- I'm fairly confident I can figure out how to install it myself; there's just the cutting part which I don't know how to do [yet] but I have the necessary tools on hand, I'm sure.

stevage

Here's my tip: Research. A lot. Don't try and make decisions indirectly by the "do I trust this guy" method.

(Also, asking people to tell you if you're being ripped off, when you don't even know what deal you're being offered...)

bikinfool

I googled kcid and got radio stations or acronyms...fill me in!

ed 

It's like reneiw. (pronounced wee-nuhr)


If I tell it like it is...then it just gets censored.

cryptid01

bfool is the one telling it like it is. And not in a particularly hsikcid manner, imo.

bikinfool

Had a moment of clarity I think they call it on my ride this afternoon...nice one, Ed. I'm not the one who complained about getting ripped off without even knowing exactly what I was getting or why...just having some fun, so....chill, dude. Or was it the Walmart thing that hit home?

ed 

Hahaha...I don't know what Walmart thing (nuther thread, or should I read this one in its entirety?) I'm chill now...very coooool.