Campagnolo 11 speed shifters with Shimano 9 speed
06-19-11, 02:30 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Campagnolo 11 speed shifters with Shimano 9 speed
I was all set on replacing the 10 speed black ergo shifters ( 2008 Veloce ) for some alloy versions ( natural finish ) but since they are getting difficult to find I have been considering the new Ultra Shift instead. I was all set to buy some 10 speed versions when I discovered that the 11 speed will work with the 9 speed Shimano drive train I am using. It appears the cable pull is close enough that this combination will work as well as the Campagnolo 10 spd. with Shimano 8 spd. does. Has anyone here had any experience with this? I also wonder if the new Ultra Shift body design is more comfortable as well.
06-19-11, 04:07 PM
#2
Banned
Touring? , I'm of the opinion Shimano's 7 speed K cassette, is all you need, for touring .
13,15,17,20,24,29, 34 .. wide range. add anymore cogs and the redundancies
of ratios make the additional complexity no benefit..
I think you need to go to the racing forum, as 11 speed stuff is for that part of the sport .
if the width of an 8 speed cassette is divided by 10,or 11 ..
1/8th is not = to 1/10th, as you should grasp.
likewise 1/9th is not = to 1/11th..
so the gaps between cogs are narrower and the shifting will be out of synch
J tec makes a cable pull adapter roller , the diameter sizes differ
in their various models, so may be compatible , I'd check with them.
Like travel agents are for brakes, these are travel agents for rear derailleur.
[I have just used simple reliable friction shifting on my touring bikes ,
It has functioned fine.. so I just speak of the mechanics on this.., not ownership.]
13,15,17,20,24,29, 34 .. wide range. add anymore cogs and the redundancies
of ratios make the additional complexity no benefit..
I think you need to go to the racing forum, as 11 speed stuff is for that part of the sport .
if the width of an 8 speed cassette is divided by 10,or 11 ..
1/8th is not = to 1/10th, as you should grasp.
likewise 1/9th is not = to 1/11th..
so the gaps between cogs are narrower and the shifting will be out of synch
J tec makes a cable pull adapter roller , the diameter sizes differ
in their various models, so may be compatible , I'd check with them.
Like travel agents are for brakes, these are travel agents for rear derailleur.
[I have just used simple reliable friction shifting on my touring bikes ,
It has functioned fine.. so I just speak of the mechanics on this.., not ownership.]
Last edited by fietsbob; 06-20-11 at 08:34 AM.
06-19-11, 06:41 PM
#3
don't try this at home.
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I don't know about the Shimano compatibility. ( fietsbob, the spacing between cogs is different for Shimano compared to Campagnolo, even for the same number of cogs)
This isn't a "touring" review, since I'm using a 34-50 with a 13-29. That's a nice low gear for steep hills, but probably not low enough for touring.
I got a great closeout deal on a 2010 Veloce 10 speed Ultrashift shifter and 2011 Veloce rear derailleur. After 19,000 miles, my 2006 Veloce derailleur was getting inconsistent shifts, due to wear at the derailleur pivot points. The new rear derailleur worked fine with my old 2006 10 speed shifters, too. I would have kept them, since they've been overhauled a few times and work great, but I wanted to try the new shifter shape.
I like the Ultrashift shifters. The new hood shape is more comfortable. It's easier to get a strong braking force from the hoods, since the brake levers have a bigger curve. I can even give my hands a rest by lightly holding the shifter knob, with the edge of my palm resting on the hood, but I can't brake from that position, of course.
The shifting is similar to the old 10 speeds, 3 gears up and 5 down, good enough. Note--the 2011 Veloce is not Ultrashift, it's the 3-up and 1-down Powershift mechanism. I wouldn't like a 1-down shifter, since every time I hit a hill, dropping down to the 34 chainring from the 50, I also move 3 cogs in the back. That is now one thumb shift on both the left and the right shifters.
The cable routing on the ultrashift is much better designed for a smooth bar top if both shifter and brake cables are routed to the front of the bar. There's no cable housing crossing over the top of the bar now. It did take me a while to figure out how to install the cable into the shifter--there's a window on the side of the shifter body!
My only annoyance: While in the drops, I can't reliably trim a cross-chained front derailleur when it's in the big ring. It's a fairly hard pull on the thumb shifter, and I tend to drop it into the small ring with two clicks, when I wanted to just do one click.
This isn't a "touring" review, since I'm using a 34-50 with a 13-29. That's a nice low gear for steep hills, but probably not low enough for touring.
I got a great closeout deal on a 2010 Veloce 10 speed Ultrashift shifter and 2011 Veloce rear derailleur. After 19,000 miles, my 2006 Veloce derailleur was getting inconsistent shifts, due to wear at the derailleur pivot points. The new rear derailleur worked fine with my old 2006 10 speed shifters, too. I would have kept them, since they've been overhauled a few times and work great, but I wanted to try the new shifter shape.
I like the Ultrashift shifters. The new hood shape is more comfortable. It's easier to get a strong braking force from the hoods, since the brake levers have a bigger curve. I can even give my hands a rest by lightly holding the shifter knob, with the edge of my palm resting on the hood, but I can't brake from that position, of course.
The shifting is similar to the old 10 speeds, 3 gears up and 5 down, good enough. Note--the 2011 Veloce is not Ultrashift, it's the 3-up and 1-down Powershift mechanism. I wouldn't like a 1-down shifter, since every time I hit a hill, dropping down to the 34 chainring from the 50, I also move 3 cogs in the back. That is now one thumb shift on both the left and the right shifters.
The cable routing on the ultrashift is much better designed for a smooth bar top if both shifter and brake cables are routed to the front of the bar. There's no cable housing crossing over the top of the bar now. It did take me a while to figure out how to install the cable into the shifter--there's a window on the side of the shifter body!
My only annoyance: While in the drops, I can't reliably trim a cross-chained front derailleur when it's in the big ring. It's a fairly hard pull on the thumb shifter, and I tend to drop it into the small ring with two clicks, when I wanted to just do one click.
Last edited by rm -rf; 06-19-11 at 07:02 PM.
06-19-11, 08:17 PM
#4
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Thread Starter
rm -rf, thank you very much for taking the time to note you're experience with the Ultra Shift shifters. There seems to be limited information on using the 11 speed versions with Shimano 9 speed but it appears they work based on two individuals that tried it. I guess the only way to really find out how well is to purchase a pair and try them myself. Hopefully the Athenas with Power Shift will function without issues and I would like to find out how comfortable they are, the improved braking ability sounds great. I will do a follow up if I pursue this so others can make a decision as not having to use a Shift Mate or cable modification would be a plus.
06-20-11, 06:45 AM
#5
don't try this at home.
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Some of these "use derailleur A with cassette B" setups require the cable to be clamped on the "other side" of the clamp bolt, so there's a different amount of movement per shift, since the cable attachment point is moved. That might be how they go the 11 and 9 to work together?
Standard spacings don't seem compatible:
Who knows if these cog spacings are correct.
9 speed Shimano spacing: 4.34 mm Link
11 speed Campagnolo spacing: 3.85 mm Link
After 8 shifts,
8*4.34 = 34.7 mm
8*3.85 = 30.8 mm
That's one whole cog difference, so after 4 shifts, it would be off by a half shift. It doesn't look good.
It's easy to try if you have a 9 speed wheel, but you'll probably need to use a real 11 speed hub and cassette. Not all 10 speed Campagnolo hubs will work with 11 speed, without hitting the spokes.
For example, from White Industries:
Standard spacings don't seem compatible:
Who knows if these cog spacings are correct.
9 speed Shimano spacing: 4.34 mm Link
11 speed Campagnolo spacing: 3.85 mm Link
After 8 shifts,
8*4.34 = 34.7 mm
8*3.85 = 30.8 mm
That's one whole cog difference, so after 4 shifts, it would be off by a half shift. It doesn't look good.
It's easy to try if you have a 9 speed wheel, but you'll probably need to use a real 11 speed hub and cassette. Not all 10 speed Campagnolo hubs will work with 11 speed, without hitting the spokes.
For example, from White Industries:
H3 version is Campy 11 speed compatible.
Neither the H2, nor any previous generation White Industries hub will work with Campy 11 speed. The newest 11 speed system requires the largest cog to cantilever over the hub shell and our older hubs were not engineered based upon this design.
Neither the H2, nor any previous generation White Industries hub will work with Campy 11 speed. The newest 11 speed system requires the largest cog to cantilever over the hub shell and our older hubs were not engineered based upon this design.
Last edited by rm -rf; 06-20-11 at 06:54 AM.
06-20-11, 08:36 AM
#6
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The original poster wants to set up bikes so there's 11 speed campy shifters on a nine speed drivetrain?
aren't you going to be annoyed by the two ghost stops in your shifter? seems like a kludge, why not just run barcons and a suitable hood shape out of the scads of levers available.
aren't you going to be annoyed by the two ghost stops in your shifter? seems like a kludge, why not just run barcons and a suitable hood shape out of the scads of levers available.
06-20-11, 09:48 AM
#7
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Thread Starter
Yes, barcons would certainly simplify matters but I have grown fond of Campagnolo's ergo shifter design. All I can say is that it apparently works, and I already have one extra shift with the current 10 speed set up. It is not difficult to use the rear derailleur stop screw to make it work. I must be getting older - I find having the shifter controls right at the brake lever gives me better control - I would have never bothered had I not read all the positive user reviews on them = a good number with touring bikes use them. I realize one is adding more complexity, but they seem reliable enough for my use, since I only do trips involving local one day affairs. I appreciate the advice given here and it looks like I am eager to try this out so I can confirm it.
06-20-11, 10:20 AM
#8
-
I've read numerous reports which state you can run 10s Campy ergo with 9s Shimano by simply attaching cable according to the attached picture below, taken from this article:
https://www.hubbubcustom.com/articles_ergopower.html
I believe the cable attachment trick will work, since it increases radius and reduces derailleur movement over standard cable attachment.
I am unaware of successful 11s Campy/9s Shimano combinations, but then there's a lot things I don't know. It does seem like it should work. OP, I suggest you spend some time googling or over at the roadie forum for better information.
In addition to the cable trick, you can use a J-Tek adapter for many combinations:
https://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.htm
I've used 10s Campy Veloce Ultrashift with Shimano 3x9s drivetrain for a couple years now, using a #2 J-Tek adapter. I was unaware of the cable attachment trick at the time I purchased the adapter and built the bike. I might take the adapter off at some point and use the simpler cable attachment trick.
The 10s Ultrashift/9s Shimano shifting works perfectly (in the rear) in my experience. However, the triple front derailleur compatibility is another story. The 10s Ultrashift doesn't have an adequate shifting range in the front (campy spacing is narrower). Mated to an LX f der, it's about 1mm shy of having adequate range. It's needs to pull about 1-2mm more cable than it actually will pull. With Shimano brifters/shifters you have a slight excess of pull which you can limit with screws. To get the Ultrashift working with LX, I had to bend the derailleur cage slightly. Works but not pretty or ideal. I've thought of modifying the cable attachment to the front derailleur to reduce radius/increase derailleur movement, but this would involve some material removal via filing, and possibly ruining a derailleur, so I haven't proceeded with this idea yet.
As far as having "too many clicks/ghost stops", this doesn't actually occur - the limit screws lock you out of the extra click.
The reason I mated 10s Ultrashifter to Shimano 9 speed was simple. I wanted brifters, and I preferred the feel (and cable routing) of Campy over Shimano STI, and I knew the J-Tek adapter would work. But the real incentive was cost. The cheapest STI brifters at the time were Tiagra @ ~$200, or 105s @ ~$250, plus another ten bucks for shipping. I found Veloce Ultrashifters with a full cable/housing kit for $135, which included shipping. I already had an extensive collection of Shimano 9s drivetrain parts. So, that's how I got there.
https://www.hubbubcustom.com/articles_ergopower.html
I believe the cable attachment trick will work, since it increases radius and reduces derailleur movement over standard cable attachment.
I am unaware of successful 11s Campy/9s Shimano combinations, but then there's a lot things I don't know. It does seem like it should work. OP, I suggest you spend some time googling or over at the roadie forum for better information.
In addition to the cable trick, you can use a J-Tek adapter for many combinations:
https://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.htm
I've used 10s Campy Veloce Ultrashift with Shimano 3x9s drivetrain for a couple years now, using a #2 J-Tek adapter. I was unaware of the cable attachment trick at the time I purchased the adapter and built the bike. I might take the adapter off at some point and use the simpler cable attachment trick.
The 10s Ultrashift/9s Shimano shifting works perfectly (in the rear) in my experience. However, the triple front derailleur compatibility is another story. The 10s Ultrashift doesn't have an adequate shifting range in the front (campy spacing is narrower). Mated to an LX f der, it's about 1mm shy of having adequate range. It's needs to pull about 1-2mm more cable than it actually will pull. With Shimano brifters/shifters you have a slight excess of pull which you can limit with screws. To get the Ultrashift working with LX, I had to bend the derailleur cage slightly. Works but not pretty or ideal. I've thought of modifying the cable attachment to the front derailleur to reduce radius/increase derailleur movement, but this would involve some material removal via filing, and possibly ruining a derailleur, so I haven't proceeded with this idea yet.
As far as having "too many clicks/ghost stops", this doesn't actually occur - the limit screws lock you out of the extra click.
The reason I mated 10s Ultrashifter to Shimano 9 speed was simple. I wanted brifters, and I preferred the feel (and cable routing) of Campy over Shimano STI, and I knew the J-Tek adapter would work. But the real incentive was cost. The cheapest STI brifters at the time were Tiagra @ ~$200, or 105s @ ~$250, plus another ten bucks for shipping. I found Veloce Ultrashifters with a full cable/housing kit for $135, which included shipping. I already had an extensive collection of Shimano 9s drivetrain parts. So, that's how I got there.
03-22-13, 10:20 AM
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I found this thread via Google and registered just for this topic/problem.
@VintageRider
Did you try the combination 11s Ergos and 9s Shimano derailleur + cassette?
Did it work? How?
Anybody else who tried this combination?
Thanks for any answer!
Greetings from Berlin, Germany.
@VintageRider
Did you try the combination 11s Ergos and 9s Shimano derailleur + cassette?
Did it work? How?
Anybody else who tried this combination?
Thanks for any answer!
Greetings from Berlin, Germany.
03-22-13, 10:29 AM
#10
Banned
[yea I know the spacing is different. I let others carry on about all that]
Just sayin' , from a practical point of view..
We See people touring the Oregon Coast in the summer. Hundreds. some do it on racing type bikes ..
knock your self out..
Just know, the small shops wont have the money to stock Campag 11 speed spares.
might have to wait a few days, in a hotel room for the parts special orders.
Just sayin' , from a practical point of view..
We See people touring the Oregon Coast in the summer. Hundreds. some do it on racing type bikes ..
knock your self out..
Just know, the small shops wont have the money to stock Campag 11 speed spares.might have to wait a few days, in a hotel room for the parts special orders.
Last edited by fietsbob; 03-22-13 at 12:08 PM.
03-22-13, 12:04 PM
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Thanks for the answer.
But I'm just touring in Germany and the countries around. So if something (major) fails I just walk (call a taxi/cab) to the next train station and let myself shuttle home
On the long run I will change to a complete 11s Campa setup. But for now I have Shimano 9s parts (mainly cassettes) left over I'd like to use till they are worn out.
Yes, Campa-stuff is expensive (at least here in Germany), but it is def (is that the right word?).
[I also have a 400€-watch, although a 50€-watch shows the same time.]
But I'm just touring in Germany and the countries around. So if something (major) fails I just walk (call a taxi/cab) to the next train station and let myself shuttle home
On the long run I will change to a complete 11s Campa setup. But for now I have Shimano 9s parts (mainly cassettes) left over I'd like to use till they are worn out.
Yes, Campa-stuff is expensive (at least here in Germany), but it is def (is that the right word?).
[I also have a 400€-watch, although a 50€-watch shows the same time.]
03-22-13, 12:29 PM
#12
-
Apparently it's a straight connection without any cable pull adapter or cable clamping trick.
Along the same lines, I recently built a new bike and dispensed with the Jtek adapter I had used in the past, as described above in #8. I simply routed the cable the same way as pictured. 10s Campy shifter and 9s Shimano cassette + RD work pretty good this way.
I bent my Shimano LX FD cage a bit with pliers so that it now works well with Campy 10s shifter. Part of my earlier problem was the derailleur was slightly misaligned (rotation around seat tube off a bit), plus the (big) 44t chainring was slightly bent, which I managed to straighten.
My drivetrain consists of Campy Veloce Ultrashift 10s shifters, Truvativ Stylo 22-32-44t mtb crankset, Shimano LX 9s FD, Deore 11-32t 9s cassette and Shimano XT 9s "rapid-rise" RD. At least two of those components aren't supposed to be compatible, but nevertheless shifts properly >95% of the time. A racer would demand 100% perfect shifts, but this configuration is more than adequate for my purposes (exercise/commuting/touring).
03-22-13, 03:46 PM
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Thanks for the reply.
Yes, 10s Campa and 9s Shimano stuff works well together, some fine-tuning provided. A friend of mine is using it.
But this video does not convince me!
No footage of the used levers? No alternate cable routing? No shift-mate?
This guy could have used anything to shift.
In the comments he is writing:
"At zero cost in anything but some enjoyable time getting my hands dirty. ... Product loyalty these days is for those with too much money and zero imagination."
-> That does NOT sound like someone who buys Campagnolo.
But thanks for the input
Yes, 10s Campa and 9s Shimano stuff works well together, some fine-tuning provided. A friend of mine is using it.
But this video does not convince me!
No footage of the used levers? No alternate cable routing? No shift-mate?
This guy could have used anything to shift.
In the comments he is writing:
"At zero cost in anything but some enjoyable time getting my hands dirty. ... Product loyalty these days is for those with too much money and zero imagination."
-> That does NOT sound like someone who buys Campagnolo.
But thanks for the input
04-20-13, 08:51 AM
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Campy 11 is 2.6mm cable pull, Shimano 9 is 2.5mm cable pull. It's close enough as illustrated. Opens up a lot of cheap cassettes especially if 32-34- gearing is desired on cheap used wheelsets.
04-20-13, 09:25 AM
#15
-
Copied from #8:
The cheapest STI brifters at the time were Tiagra @ ~$200, or 105s @ ~$250, plus another ten bucks for shipping. I found Veloce Ultrashifters with a full cable/housing kit for $135, which included shipping.
04-21-13, 10:30 AM
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Yes, barcons would certainly simplify matters but I have grown fond of Campagnolo's ergo shifter design. All I can say is that it apparently works, and I already have one extra shift with the current 10 speed set up. It is not difficult to use the rear derailleur stop screw to make it work. I must be getting older - I find having the shifter controls right at the brake lever gives me better control - I would have never bothered had I not read all the positive user reviews on them = a good number with touring bikes use them. I realize one is adding more complexity, but they seem reliable enough for my use, since I only do trips involving local one day affairs. I appreciate the advice given here and it looks like I am eager to try this out so I can confirm it.
Since I dt shifted with the right hand for 25 years, left hand on the hood right hand on the bar con = stable position leading to easy combo shifting which i never could master with barcons.
As a bonus campag triple shifter are ratchet friction in disguise... they shift everything.
Sent from Trujillo Peru
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