Bekologist

yah, like if it's rained and things are wet, or you've ridden into a national park/preserve with gathering restrictions, or an area with fire danger restrictions.

Relying on a scavenged fuel source, to then burn as a fire -albeit in a Iphone embracing way - is not a great solution for any situation.

it's 'suboptimal' with a fair number of (hidden?) external forces affecting its use.

Burton

I'v found McDonalds and Tim Hortons to be like Gods - they're everywhere! At least they are if you're anywhere near a paved road and any town with a population over 1,500 people.

So although I've OCASIONALLY camped in remote areas where I was 'on my own' for a week at a time, dealing with civilization is pretty much a normal part of using roads. So in my case taking advantage of man made ' natural resources' has been a fairly practical alternative to insisting on doing everything myself.

Hot water is usually on the burner for tea at most fast food restaurants and most places will fill a Thermos as a courtesy. Its also a great place to pick up coffee, muffins in a six-pack are cheap and tax free, salads are inexpensive, and the washrooms are clean and a great place to wash up, shave if necessary, and change clothes. A secondary Camelbak bladder for extra water is all thats normally needed - you pick the temperature. It can be filled from a hot water tap for washing or with crushed ice to act as a cooler. Again, thats often provided as a courtesy but I'm not adverse to paying for it anyway.

All of which can reduce or completely eliminate the need to heat water for anything for a day or days depending on where you are. In warm weather I tend to use a stove as little as possible or not at all myself. On short trips it can be completely optional. The ice on the other hand, besides eventually providing drinking water (filter it) can act as a cooler for perishable items. Call me a seagull - I'm a bit of an opportunist and like a free handout. Even taking advantage of that just before heading into a wilderness area will cut a couple days fuel and food requirements off a trip.

There are parks here in Quebec that are open for camping year round and winter camping is part of courses offered at some of the colleges here. My kid sister's went on her first outing that way when she was seventeen and did just fine. There are also courses and outings offered by MEC and La Cordee as well as ice-climbing, mountaineering, back-country and cross-country skiing. The annual Winter Carnival here also features an ice hotel where guests can pay to sleep in furs on mattress made of blocks of ice, drink out of sculpted ice glasses and other masochistic novelties. There are no stoves.

Winter camping as a year round activity spanning multiple years is a complete fantasy. The further north you go the longer and hotter the days are during the summer months. Summer in Montreal is actually hotter and the days longer than summer in Cali, Colombia. Thats not just some statistic - I have addresses in both countries.

In Eastern Canada, there are probably only a few months at most where snow stays on the ground and the temperature is continuously below freezing. My dad spent years stationed just below the Arctic Circle. They get summer there too - a six month period when the sun never sets and the days are hot enough to melt the top few feet of frozen tundra in spite of the permafrost below. Before 'civilization' showed up, the Inuit there existed for thousands of years using just animal fat and peat as fuels.

Normally insulation is more of a concern in colder weather than hydration, so water usage is reduced. Regardless - my normal strategy is to fill a 2 liter thermos with boiling water ONCE a day. Thats usually enough for TWO people unless someone decides to wash their hair. Sometimes I might use a stove - sometimes I might have access to a friendly clerk at a fast food restaurant. Any extended trip into a wilderness area is, IMO, a cue to bring a wood burning stove. During winter months there are no restrictions against using them. But even in a group of 6 people in the middle of nowhere - I've never seen 12 liters of water boiled a day. I guess we're just wierd.

A camelbak is still a good supplementary backup, and wearing one under your clothes (there are models just for that) will prevent it from freezing and keep it at a temperature reasonable for drinking, washing or whatever. Sleep with it - it also makes a pretty fair pillow.

Being active can generate enough heat to slowly melt snow in a camelbak under clothing and offset the need to remove a jacket. So I've never been forced to melt snow just for water. That's a last minute resort resulting from not thinking ahead far enough. I have a Red Cross approved water filter but have only used that in the tropics. In Canada at least, for snow-water a Brita water bottle filter is just fine once the stuff is liquid.

The biggest issue winter camping is the same as summer camping - keeping warm and dry. And dry is less of a problem in the winter than the summer. Something hot first thing in the morning might be a good idea to kick start things, but being active usually results in shedding clothes later in the day. Relying on hot food to stay warm is a last resort and a sign of a poor choice of clothing.

However - thats just my preference and opinion. If someone else feels the need to run a portable hot-tub or Chinese laundry in the middle of a camp site - please feel free to bring as much fuel as you want.

Niles H.

It certainly sounds to me as if you are interested in saving money on fuel, despite what some others here are suggesting. Even the title of the thread, and the intention of the thread speak of an interest in saving on fuel.

Many people find the minimal initial investment in alky stoves very attractive. If you are using them enough, though, over time the fuel costs tend to add up higher than it seems at first, especially if at first you are only focusing on the short term costs (costs per stove, per fuel purchase, per meal, per day, etc.). Most people seem to leave out the longer, more comprehensive or complete view. If you take a minute to include that sort of view, you can see the picture differently and make better decisions. Of course, this will depend on individual usage over time.

What I wanted to add is that multi-fuel stoves' initial costs do not have to be that high. I've seen MSR WhisperLite Internationals and other multi-fuel stoves at yard sales and elsewhere being sold for just a few dollars. You might be able to find something through CL. A lot of people have them but no longer get out much, and would be glad to see them go to someone who would put them to good use. I wouldn't be surprised if the cost of some of these turned out to be very minimal. (You can also watch for sales at places like REI, or just buy one on Amazon.)

The cost of fuel would be much less than that of the alcohol. (Less than 1/20th.)

I have found ways of making the refueling clean and easy at gas stations.

Also, I've done the calculations, and gas looks better than filtration in cost, weight, bulk, simplicity, and effectiveness -- and far better in cold weather. Most filters, including the Sawyers (according to their own website), not only cease to function but are also permanently damaged and rendered unsafe for use if moisture is allowed to freeze inside the filter.

Of course, there may be a variety of other factors that enter into your choices; but your thread title seemed to indicate an interest in saving on costs, so I thought some of this might be of interest to you. (And quite possibly to some others as well, but obviously not to everyone....)

One other thing about the WhisperLite and most other MSR stoves: they are reliable and very durable. If you do ever need to work on them, once you get to know them they are very easy to work on with small, minimal tools, and very easy to understand and maintain. They are designed that way. I was in a small town mountaineering store on Tuesday, and right next to the spools of climbing rope and cord was a little chest of drawers carrying just about every part from every major MSR stove, all very reasonably priced. These stoves are just all over the place. There is also a lot of information on the MSR website and on a variety of backpacking and other websites and forums if you ever need more information or support.

stevepusser

The cost is just one of the factors, another is that the store is very close to my workplace.

I also enjoy the simplicity and quiet of open-top alcohol stoves. Just pour in the fuel, add the pot stand, light, put on the pot, and sit back. A little salt in the fuel will give a yellow flame to make it visible.
I do have a stove that can burn unleaded gasoline, but just found myself leaving it at home.

staehpj1

I too enjoy the simplicity, but I am kind of baffled over folks concerns about the sound a stove makes. If I anything I kind of miss the little roar that my old Svea 123 made. I know that for a lot of folks the noise that a white gas or other pressurized liquid fuel stove makes is a big negative and for them I guess it is a plus for alcohol. Nothing wrong with that but to me it always seemed like an odd thing to worry about.

Niles H.

I just finished going through a bunch of other threads on stoves (trying to sort out the newer laws), and came across guys who have used a wide assortment of stoves over decades of long distance outdoor use. I came away with a renewed appreciation for individual differences. And points of appreciation.

And a renewed openness to titanium woodburning stoves.

Which is actually quite surprising to me.

staehpj1

I too have always been interested in woodburning stoves, but when it came to actually trying them they always seemed to be more trouble than they were worth. I keep thinking I will force myself to use one on a trip to see how it really works out. I toyed with using one for my JMT hike this summer, but their use is not allowed above something like 10,000'. Also in some places they are not allowed during open fire bans.

Niles H.

After trying just about everything out there, and after the dust had finally settled, over the course of years and decades, and they had found a clear winner that they were happy with, it was a very diverse set of choices.

One thing that stood out is that different people focus on different aspects. It might be a certain like and/or dislike (which can be changed or let go or loosened up, but are usually assumed to be or accepted as strong and given things).

Quietness or noise is one.

There were others.

A few guys just really disliked having to worry about running out of fuel, and where to buy the next refill.

Once they solved that they were in stove paradise.

Another thing that stood out is that many people could appreciate the multiple advantages of going stoveless, but only a few had the balls to go ahead and do it.

Some who did go stoveless developed ways of rehydrating and enjoying a fairly wide range of dehydrated meals without a stove.

And some of the coffee drinkers even found ways of making that work, stovelessly.

Although I don't drink coffee, I found this encouraging. Like there is hope for us as a species.

Even they could give something up (their stoves in this case) and move forward into something new and different and better, change, adapt, and make it work.

Bekologist

Love the Svea 123. Pretty sure you can still get them new. The BRAAAAP of a Svea at full roar is comforting when out in the alpine. it's a sign things are working.

Of course, i've also seen Sveas (and other stoves) explode and fly thru the air from a leaky pressure system. Always cool to see 10 feet jets of flame out in the backcountry and unplanned projectile launches.

I once dropped my Svea 20 feet or so off a cliff to a ledge below; climbed down to retrieve it and it was still running.

Burton

the real bs is you coming on these forums and posting stuff like this:
In parallel with claims that you need an average of a gallon of fuel a month to melt snow and otherwise live some kind of year round touring experience that no-one else I've ever heard of thats actually gainfully employed has ever had the time to deal with.

And then there's little claim that we're really 'just guests in a world that actually belongs to ants', immediately followed by some obcession with petroleum based stoves - the processing and burning of which is undoubtably one of the most environmentally unfriendly things I can think of.

Suggest you see a shrink - and an English teacher. Most of your posts read like computer generated translations. Most of that terminology and structure isn't in common usage today.

seeker333

Thanks for the hearty laugh I just enjoyed.

I've long thought he needs a shrink too. I was completely convinced yesterday. He believes the Boy Scouts of America is empowered to ban alcohol stove use anywhere, anytime. Read the inane comments in this thread, starting at #42:

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post15530351

Your English teacher comment reminds me of:

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post15503909

"This s just the sort of false and cliched twaddle one might expect from a rather senile nanny."

"You are too reminiscent of a talking taxidermied spinster playing fly-on-the-wall in the Bates Motel."

Apologies for this somewhat OT comment, I could not resist.

robow

Ground control to Major Tom, Prepare for Lockdown ....... Again

Western Flyer 

By “gas” am I to assume you mean automotive gasoline and not butane gas, propane gas, mixed Isopro gas or “white gas?” (I don’t think “white gas” has been available as stove fuel for decades. I think it was considered almost as dangerous as gasoline. But the name, “white gas” has been commonly transferred to Coleman type stove fuels.)

Calculating the money flow directly from your wallet into your fuel bottle, gasoline has to be pretty close to as inexpensive as it gets. I’m thinking diesel (paraffin) and kerosene might give gasoline a run for the money because of their higher heat outputs. Gasoline at say a $1/qt from the pump compared to a quart can of denatured ethanol or Coleman fuel at $6 or $7 is a pretty big spread. Of course if you were touring in the Midwest or Brazil, where something like E-85 is available at the pump, the difference would be pennies. My local Ace Hardware sells methanol in quart cans for $2, really closing the cost differential (I still buy their ethanol.). Obviously I calculate the costs differently.

I have been burning alcohol (mostly ethanol) exclusively for decades, be it bike touring, back packing, sea kayaking or car camping with the children and now the grandchildren. But if I were, and I hope someday, to bike tour in the third world, I would probably bring a multi-fuel stove with the idea of using diesel and kerosene as my primary fuels with gasoline as a last resort. When I read Tim Travis’ Down the Road accounts of cooking with gasoline in small third world hotel rooms, I just shook my head in disbelief.

Western Flyer 

Despite the fervent, near religious, belief and testimony by many touring cyclists on this and other forums, declaring their undying even thread-ending allegiance to alcohol fuel, in all my years of camping by bicycle and otherwise, I have never seen anyone besides myself using an alcohol stove of any description. I going to guess that about half of the campers at hiker/biker sites I have stayed at had never even heard of alcohol stoves. The first and near universal comment when I put match to cat can is shear amazement at how quiet it is. Of course quiet a poor descriptor. Silent is a better adjective.

On more than one occasion I have had a fellow cyclist and early riser ask to put their pot of water on my stove in lieu of waking the other cyclists and perhaps the entire campground with their blow-torch stove. At other times when camping next to a huge RV who ran their generator well into the night, I would love to light up one of these kerosene stoves that sound and smell like a 747 burning J-5 at takeoff.

staehpj1

Yea this is one of those things that seem to be way more common in discussion groups than out on the road. I have met a few folks using alcohol stoves, but they were a definite minority and a small one at that. I have noticed the same about other gear choices as well.

Some folks must be way more sensitive to the noise than I am. I can't imagine waking because of the sound of the likes of the SVEA in the same site, let alone one in another site, or in a neighboring RV.

djb

I had a German friend who used a Trangia type stove, was the first time I had ever seen them, even from camping and canoe camping as a kid and teenager with groups (who knows, maybe they were used, but they didnt register with me)

Seeing my friends alcohol stove, as I had a new (then) Whisperlite, which I didnt really find that noisy, I never considered changing simply cuz I had a stove that worked.

Burton

To put things in perspective - on any tour I've ever done in the past 30 years - cooking fuel was such a minor cost compared to food, lodging, equipment and secondary transportation (airfare, taxis, train, bus and metro etc) that I'd consider it incidental.

At least in my case, if cost cutting was an issue - the kind of fuel being burned would probably be the last thing I'd consider worth addressing. In fact, as well as 2 alcohol stoves, I still have 4 butane burners.

Eventually sold the Optimus 99 because there was really no way to avoid the smell of gas on everything that touched it - which doesn't work well with minimalist approaches. Miniature wood burning stoves are an excellent alternative unless you're on a schedule.

Gas BBQs have largely replaced charcoal because of convenience - instant on and instant off. For those like me who like a more leasurely pace anyway - alcohol and wood burners are just fine. And the fuels are renewable resources.

rifraf

Gave up carting my triple fuel Optimus 111C about a year or so ago ago and haven't looked back.
I occasionally miss it as it brought out the boy in me with its fun factor. I've been sold on the Trangia alcohol stove which has in its set, two pots, a lid that supposedly doubles as a fry pan (I've not tried) and a small kettle.
An overzealous airport clerk confiscated my Optimus which greatly upset me at the time, but I've not bothered to replace it.
Yes the Trangia is not as fast to boil water as the Optimus, but its not a race and I've found my "zone" in cycletouring where time is really not a factor I pay a lot of attention to.
Plenty of room for all cooking methods and approaches so a little disappointed to see some here taking
the time to bother arguing with aficionados of other beliefs. Surely theres room for all.
My belief system wouldnt allow for poisenous gasolene as a cooking fuel, the ability to find dry fuel for woodstove or the maddening roar of the svea. But I'd never suggest my way is superior for anybody else.
It just suits me currently and who knows, one day I may convert to something else - never say never.
Happy spinning everyone