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  1. #1
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Some interesting anomalies regarding protein supplements (drink milk good)

    I've come across an odd thing that might be of some interest to some of you.

    I've been taking whey protein for years for my daily protein requirements (I don't eat mammals or dinosaurs). I usually take it just before a meal and immediately before bed. I've taken my resting and standing heart rate every morning for many years. My morning heart rates have values for resting, normal, and post exercise stress that haven't varied for years. I know exactly what they mean and what to do in response.

    Recently I got the bug to change the milk protein I buy. I bought a big container of mixed whey and casein proteins. In less than a week after changing to this stuff, my morning heart rates, especially my standing heart rate fell a lot, even after hard exercise. It was bizarre. Standing heart rate fell by 10 beats. That's a WTF? I've seen standing heart rates of 54, resting heart rate as low as 44. Never seen values like that in all the years I've been doing this. My usuals with whey have been 49 MRHR, 64 MSHR.

    So I wondered why and naturally for me, started researching. A little hard to find - who else in the world is interested in this anyway? But maybe I've found something. It turns out that digestion breaks peptides loose from the protein chains found in milk, different peptides from whey and casein proteins. The casein derived peptides are touted as having something to do with sleep and a whole bunch of other things. IOW sleep is deeper, quicker, and more refreshing for a variety of reasons and maybe that's the cause of the MRHR thing. What else could it be? Maybe also a decrease in inflammation?

    Thinking back on it, I maybe have fallen asleep faster, etc. I keep track of my perceived sleep quality, and maybe it has been better when using the whey/casein instead of the pure whey. Nothing definite there, because I usually sleep quite well, but maybe.

    Anyway, three links to look at:
    http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2011/...l-Sleep_01.htm
    http://www.dairyscience.info/index.p...l=&limitstart=

    The protein in question:
    http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/mu...ch/phase8.html
    This container comes with a giant scoop. I use a 50ml scoop instead, which is plenty. I use 4 scoops/day if I ride or work out, whether whey or the whey/casein blend, the last one immediately before bed. The flavor of the Phase8 is not so great. I think the vanilla might be the best bet.

    And another odd thing: There's a claim in the first link that one will burn more calories the next day if one drinks milk or peptides or whatever before bed. I ran across a 53 page discussion on the Crossfit blog about eating ice cream immediately before bed. Some claim that eating quite a large bowl of ice cream immediately before bed will cause one to lose weight, for weeks even. That probably assumes that one is a Crossfit nut and is frequently running calorie-negative anyway. But that is interesting w/r to the peptide thing.

    Anyway, drinking milk good, ice cream good, mixed whey/casein extract maybe even better.

  2. #2
    Senior Member wolfchild's Avatar
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    I get my daily dose of casein protein from cottage cheese, yogurt and milk, I don't use supplements anymore.
    I've experimented with whey protein for few years but it didn't do anything for my performance, recovery and body composition, so I stopped using it. I prefer to eat real whole foods instead of eating "isolated nutrients", actually I get better results from drinking plain milk the from protein powders...90% of protein powders are denatured because of high heat and acid processing and many are contaminated with heavy metals, I really question their effectiveness and health benefits..Maybe the reason why your heart rate changed after drinking that stuff is because of all the toxic crap that's in that powder.

  3. #3
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
    I get my daily dose of casein protein from cottage cheese, yogurt and milk, I don't use supplements anymore.
    I've experimented with whey protein for few years but it didn't do anything for my performance, recovery and body composition, so I stopped using it. I prefer to eat real whole foods instead of eating "isolated nutrients", actually I get better results from drinking plain milk the from protein powders...90% of protein powders are denatured because of high heat and acid processing and many are contaminated with heavy metals, I really question their effectiveness and health benefits..Maybe the reason why your heart rate changed after drinking that stuff is because of all the toxic crap that's in that powder.
    Links for studies showing that protein powder manufacturers adulterate their products?

    How a food works for a person depends a lot on how that food is used, no matter what it is. Protein powder is about 1/3 the calories compared to getting the same protein from 2% milk. Plus I'm a little sensitive to lactose, but that's a personal problem. By supplementing with milk proteins I can work out hard, gain muscle, and lose weight overall without eating mammals or dinosaurs at all and eating very little fish. Good fish is expensive and caloric.

  4. #4
    Lover of Old Chrome Moly Myosmith's Avatar
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    Wolfchild is partially correct about whey protein supplements. The quality depends on the manufacturing process and controls. Minute traces of heavy metals can be found in many supplements but there was a big scare several years back when a few brands were found to have higher than acceptable levels of lead and mercury. It was traced back to the water source in the manufacturing plants and has since been rectified. I still don't trust the big bag-o-whey from overseas that you can get online.

    Proteins do denature in high temps and this affects some protein supplements, sometimes intentionally.

    What Wolfchild didn't mention is that the exact same things happen with milk. Traces of heavy metals can be found even in some organic milk and depends on the water source from which the cows drink. It isn't even a matter of man-made contamination in some cases as natural ground water picks up some of the metals and minerals from the ground through which it flows so if you are in an area with naturally high concentrations of lead, cadmium, or lithium, it can end up in streams, stock ponds and wells. The proteins in processed milk can become denatured during pasteurization and homogenization. The UltraPasteurized milks are actually the worst offenders. HTST is "regular" pasturization which stands for High Temperature/Short Time (161 degrees F) and was once known a Flash Pasteurizing. UHT stands for Ultra High Temperature (minimum 280 degrees F). A few milk processors offer organic milk that uses the old school but still legal pasteurization process in which milk is heated to 145 degrees F and held there for up to 30 minutes. This is also the recommended process for "home pasteurization" of raw milk. The sale of raw milk is highly restricted but it can be obtained from some sources for cheese making.

    The problem with low temperature pasteurization is that the shelf life is reduced. Raw milk kept cold will last a few days at best, low temp pasteurization extends this for a couple of weeks. UHT milks can last a month or so. In other words you exchange a small amount of protein quality for shelf life and food safety. This means that drinking milk does not guarantee any better quality of protein than powdered whey/casein supplements unless you are drinking raw milk that is less than 48 hours old and has been properly handled. The USDA does not consider the consumption of raw milk safe and discourages the practice.

    It should also be noted that denaturing of protein is not necessarily a bad thing. Marketers of non-denatured proteins act like denatured protein is toxic waste, it's not. Denatured protein has lost one or more peptide bonds between the amino acids, but all the amino acids (the building blocks of all proteins) are still there. Some people find denatured proteins easier to digest with less gas and bloating. Your body doesn't use whole food proteins anyway, it breaks down those same peptide bonds and then uses the free amino acids to rebuild it's own protein structures. It's like tearing down a barn and then building a house out of the lumber. Many athletes and body builders intentionally look for supplements that have specific branch chain and free amino acids for rapid absorption and supposed specific effects. The manufacturers of baby formula market denatured proteins by saying they are "broken down for easy digestion".
    Last edited by Myosmith; 01-22-14 at 08:28 AM.
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    Senior Member Looigi's Avatar
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    Cheese is a waste byproduct of whey production. BTW, you don't need protein, but you do need the major building blocks of proteins, amino acids. In human nutrition there are 21, 9 of which humans can't synthesize so must get from food. A common way to get them is to eat foods with proteins that can be broken down to provide them. Some protein supplements provide amino acids via already broken down proteins.
    Ride more. Fret less.

  6. #6
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Wolfchild is undoubtedly referring to a scare report on whey protein published in Consumer Reports in 2010. Remember to be afraid, be very afraid.

    From http://www.optimumnutrition.com/news.php?article=874
    Small quantities of heavy metals are naturally found in soil. They are absorbed by plants and find their way up the food chain. Heavy metals have been found in cows milk all over the world, including in organic milk. Breast milk has also been show to contain these heavy metals, and may contain higher levels than cows milk since we are further up the food chain.

    I use Optimum Gold whey protein.
    By comparison, the following average amounts of the metal lead may be found naturally in food, all of which are considered safe, but significantly above the measures of 3 servings of Optimum Nutrition products in the Consumer Reports tests. The U.S. Pharmacopeia proposed limit for lead in dietary supplements was 10mcg (10mcg= 10millionths of a gram):

    FDA's publication Total Diet Study Statistics on Element Results (December 11, 2007), which analyzes 200 foods found in grocery stores four times per year, showed the following:


    Optimum Nutrition products also tested well below the The U.S. Pharmacopeia proposed limit for arsenic in dietary supplements of 15mcg (15mcg= 15millionths of a gram). Most Importantly, many common foods, including those regularly eaten for protein contained more Arsenic than the amount found in our test results, highlighting the safety of our products.


    Optimum Nutrition products also tested well below the U.S. Pharmacopeia proposed limit for Cadmium in dietary supplements of 5mcg (5mcg= 5millionths of a gram). Furthermore, many safe common foods contained more cadmium in the FDA Total Diet Study than the amount found in our test results, highlighting the safety of our products.


  7. #7
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    In 2008 or so-Chinese baby "milk formula" manufacturers adulterated it with melamine
    a toxic cheap industrial chemical high in nitrogen
    The test for protein-was actually a simple nitrogen assay.
    So they substituted cheap melamine for expensive milk proteins.
    300,000 chinese babies were sickened-MILLIONS were poisoned.
    Someone got a bullet in the head neck-but not great for babies.
    15 years earlier they did the same trick with pet food-killed thousands of mainly USA-European pets
    Same story substituting TOXIC ethylene glycol for glycerine-ended up in cough syrup and tooth paste

    These supplement manufacturers will source proteins as cheaply as possible-they are all but unregulated.

    A 10 beat drop in pulse??? 44 pulse older person???Don't know your age-guessing middle aged-but 10 point drop in pulse-from a supplement- toxicity/medication/drug effect-beta blocker?
    Slow resting pulse is fine in a young healthy athlete-but a 50 plus person-44 pulse???? sudden drop??
    Most MDs would want to rule out pathology toxicity-no matter your age-
    I wouldn't take anything that did that to my pulse-

    Guessing you pulse didn't actually drop 10 points-but if it did- from a supplement-you should be pissing in your pants.
    Hell wonder if it is contaminated with a beta blocker????
    A Beta blocker sure as hell could do that!!
    Sounds like a drug effect!
    Last edited by phoebeisis; 01-22-14 at 09:14 AM.

  8. #8
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    In 2008 or so-Chinese baby "milk formula" manufacturers adulterated it with melamine
    a toxic cheap industrial chemical high in nitrogen
    The test for protein-was actually a simple nitrogen assay.
    So they substituted cheap melamine for expensive milk proteins.
    300,000 chinese babies were sickened-MILLIONS were poisoned.
    Someone got a bullet in the head neck-but not great for babies.
    15 years earlier they did the same trick with pet food-killed thousands of mainly USA-European pets
    Same story substituting TOXIC ethylene glycol for glycerine-ended up in cough syrup and tooth paste

    These supplement manufacturers will source proteins as cheaply as possible-they are all but unregulated.

    A 10 beat drop in pulse??? 44 pulse older person???Don't know your age-guessing middle aged-but 10 point drop in pulse-from a supplement- toxicity/medication/drug effect-beta blocker?
    Slow resting pulse is fine in a young healthy athlete-but a 50 plus person-44 pulse???? sudden drop??
    Most MDs would want to rule out pathology toxicity-no matter your age-
    I wouldn't take anything that did that to my pulse-

    Guessing you pulse didn't actually drop 10 points-but if it did- from a supplement-you should be pissing in your pants.
    Hell wonder if it is contaminated with a beta blocker????
    A Beta blocker sure as hell could do that!!
    Sounds like a drug effect!
    Please, no more fear peddling, eh?

    If you think my pulse is low, you need to get a faster group of friends. It's not, for a person who has been athletic all their life. I have friends over 70 with resting HRs that low and lower. It's called "being in shape." My riding HRs are unaffected. 10 days ago, I did a 3 hour very hard ride during which I was in my threshold (4) zone for 1:18. No beta blocker. I'm 68 y.o. Eat better, ride more.

    A physiologist riding buddy says:
    you are getting the same cardiac output with a lower HR and a higher stroke volume (ml/beat). That might occur if casein is somehow increasing parasympathetic nerve activity and/or decreasing sympathetic nerve activity. This explanation would be consistent with the 'calming' effects claimed for the casein-derived peptides. I lean towards this explanation. As for why how the peptides might have this effect, I haven't got a clue.
    He is going to experiment with peptide pills to see if they have a similar effect on him.

  9. #9
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looigi View Post
    Cheese is a waste byproduct of whey production. BTW, you don't need protein, but you do need the major building blocks of proteins, amino acids. In human nutrition there are 21, 9 of which humans can't synthesize so must get from food. A common way to get them is to eat foods with proteins that can be broken down to provide them. Some protein supplements provide amino acids via already broken down proteins.
    I have an IT friend who consults on automated process engineering. He says there's a lot of truth in your first sentence, at least for grocery store cheeses. Or maybe it's the other way 'round. Hard to say. He's worked in a giant milk protein factory in Idaho, I believe this one:
    http://www.glanbiausa.com/dsp_locations_gooding.cfm
    Pretty amazing, eh?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Please, no more fear peddling, eh?

    If you think my pulse is low, you need to get a faster group of friends. It's not, for a person who has been athletic all their life. I have friends over 70 with resting HRs that low and lower. It's called "being in shape." My riding HRs are unaffected. 10 days ago, I did a 3 hour very hard ride during which I was in my threshold (4) zone for 1:18. No beta blocker. I'm 68 y.o. Eat better, ride more.

    A physiologist riding buddy says: He is going to experiment with peptide pills to see if they have a similar effect on him.
    You take an unregulated supplement-and insist your resting pulse has dropped 10 points-to 44
    You then insist this sudden drop is "from being in shape"???
    I suggest the obvious-some drug effect-
    you suggest the ridiculous-eating protein -which you have done your whole life-suddenly has dropped your pulse 10 points?

    Most likely is your pulse didn't drop one bit-just your normal day to day variation
    Or the supplement was adulterated-actual drop of 10 points 54 to 44- is HUGE-especially in an elderly person -toxicity of some sort-or perhaps heart disease-common in oldsters -
    10 point drop-"because I drank more milk" ???
    If it actually happened-it isn't from milk proteins or polypeptides-they just won't do that-
    10 points-54 TO 44- huge drop.

    UNREGULATED SUPPLEMENT-CHEAPLY SOURCED-
    If you want milk proteins-do the obvious-DRINK MILK!
    Drink Made in USA milk-preferably not from hormone jacked up cows
    Folks complain about "overprocessed" food-and then got out of their way to consume supplements and "not really food food"

    LOOK UP THE L-TRYPTOPHAN DEBACLE- eosinophil-myalgia syndrome -HUGE PROBLEM-Supplements are UNREGULATED- and not infrequently TOXIC
    Yeah an amino acid harmless supplement-TOXIC-made by japanese manufacturer-and ethical one-not the ones you are certainly dealing with
    The japanese manufacturer changed the manufacturing process and a byproduct of the new process was EXTREMELY TOXIC-no ill intent-just an unintended consequence of making a "harmless supplement" UNREGULATED!!

    Supplements instead of food???
    Most likely-your pulse isn't 10 points lower-just day to day variation-nothing to do with the supplement.If it actually is 10 points down because of some supplement-???
    Quit taking it.
    Last edited by phoebeisis; 01-22-14 at 01:17 PM.

  11. #11
    Senior Member TexMac's Avatar
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    I swallow 2 farm raised raw eggs after a hard workout and i believe that's enough protein.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Spld cyclist's Avatar
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    This is really interesting to me, being someone with insomnia who is doing some strength training. Keep us updated!

  13. #13
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spld cyclist View Post
    This is really interesting to me, being someone with insomnia who is doing some strength training. Keep us updated!
    Yes, my riding and skiing physiologist buddy suffers from insomnia, which I why I msgd him about this and why he ordered the peptide caps. Paid for by his health insurance somehow as long as he buys them from Amazon. How weird is that? I will update.

    After two weeks of really hard training, my resting HR has gone back up, so I'm taking an easy week to make sure I'm good for this weekend's hard rides. Haven't been able to do 3 on, 1 easy for a few years. Usually do 2 on, 1 easy now. Slept like a log last night.

    My wife and I are training on our tandem with an ex-racer younger woman who has signed up for the Cascade 1200 this summer. So far we are hanging because she's out of shape, but we will be getting our butts kicked pretty soon now.

  14. #14
    Lover of Old Chrome Moly Myosmith's Avatar
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    I'm not for or against whey or casein proteins as supplements. The dietary supplement industry is not completely unregulated, it falls under FDA jurisdiction, but the standards are fairly lax and most actions are taken after the fact when a dangerous supplement is reported, or when there are unsubstantiated claims of treating or curing a medical condition.

    When it comes to whey or casein protein concentrates and isolates, there is a way to assure that you are getting a better regulated product. Protein powders can be sold as loosely regulated dietary supplements or as food ingredients. As food ingredients they fall under the more stringent FDA guidelines for food for human consumption and are regulated just like corn starch, oat flour, almond meal, table sugar, or canola oil.

    I buy mine from Bob's Red Mill, which is available in many health food sections or over the internet. The company has a good reputation and is based in Oregon. It is sold as a baking ingredient and has passed all the FDA regulations and inspections as food for human consumption. It is a little more expensive than some, but I think it is as trustworthy as any protein concentrate on the market and certainly better than the MegaMuscle Body Builder in a Bucket type "supplements" sold in the big box stores. BTW, I don't use whey protein concentrate as a "supplement" as much as an ingredient to change the nutrition profile for everything from pancakes to smoothies.



    I don't think using examples of unscrupulous acts by overseas vendors as an indictment of the entire food supplement industry is fair. They slipped melamine into baby formula and dog food for Pete's sake. While supplement manufacturers are businesses and profit driven, there are companies with ethical practices that produce good products in good faith. The trick is figuring out which ones to trust, just like in any other industry.
    Last edited by Myosmith; 01-22-14 at 12:13 PM.
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    I don't even own a HR monitor, but here's a guess:
    Whey is fast digesting and casein is much slower to break down.
    Could be your digestion is still working on the casein in the morning, changing your HR from when you just did straight whey.

  16. #16
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    Eosinophilic myalgia
    should discourage anyone interested in supplements-even "natural ones" like L- trytophan
    Want milk protein-drink milk-

    See also tryptophan and EMS.
    Eosinophilia–myalgia syndrome was first recognized after the doctors of 3 American women with mysterious symptoms talked together in 1989. However, many people became ill as long as 2–3 years before the illness was reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in November 1989. Rheumatologists experienced a large surge of new patients with mysterious symptoms during this period. It is possible that as many as 60,000 individuals became ill from using L-tryptophan. Additionally, when first marketed, 27 people died.
    Some epidemiologist studies[5][6][7] traced the cause to consumption of L-tryptophan from a single Japanese manufacturer, Showa Denko.[8] The company supplied the majority of L-tryptophan to the United States under various brand names. There was evidence that new batches of L-tryptophan may have been improperly prepared. First, the specific bacterial culture used to synthesise this tryptophan had recently been genetically engineered to greatly increase tryptophan production. The increased concentrations of tryptophan in the fermentor may in turn have led to increased production of trace impurities. It is also likely that contaminants were increased because the L-Tryptophan producing bacteria were being grown in an open vat in a fertilizer factory. Second, shortcuts had been taken in the purification process to reduce costs. For example, a purification step that used charcoal adsorption to remove impurities had been modified to reduce the amount of charcoal used. It is possible that one or more of these modifications and/or the environment for manufacture allowed new or greater impurities through the purification system. More than 60 different impurities were identified in the L-tryptophan lots which had been associated with cases of EMS.
    The specific impurity (or impurities) responsible for the toxic effects was never firmly established, however two compounds, EBT (1,1'-ethylidene-bis-L-tryptophan, popularly known as "Peak E") and MTCA (1-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-beta-carboline-3-carboxylic acid), which are close chemical relatives of L-tryptophan were implicated.[9][10][11][12]
    Regardless of the origin of the toxicity, L-tryptophan was banned from sale in the US in 1991; and other countries followed suit. In February 2001, the FDA loosened the restrictions on the marketing of tryptophan (though not on importation). The supplement 5-HTP (a hydroxylated form of tryptophan and a precursor to serotonin) remains widely available.
    Alternative theory[edit]

    An alternative explanation for tryptophan associated EMS has recently been proposed.[13] Consumption of large doses of tryptophan leads to production of metabolites, some of which may interfere with normal histamine degradation. Furthermore, excessive histamine activity has been linked with blood eosinophilia and myalgia.[citation needed]
    Last edited by phoebeisis; 01-22-14 at 02:28 PM.

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