Originally Posted by
kakman
If people are attacking and tumbling on you it's fantasy to think you won't have to break rhythm at some stage. If you're always at the front you must have done 45-50 minutes in your last IM, correct? I'm sure flip turning has nothing to do with folks swimming 50 minutes - it's what they do in between
I have never completed an IM because I am 18, and that would be rather bad for my body at this point in my life, and no not ALWAYS in front, but based on other open water swims of similar distances, i would have to say at least sub 1 hour, probably in the mid 50s. As for the tumbling, there should not be that much past the first 200m, and in that case, you won't exactly be stopped then.
Why? When I did surf lifesaving as a kid we were taught to swim with head out of water so we could constantly watch the people we were rescuing - and good surf lifesavers are fast open water swimmers. The open water swimming I do will always require broken strokes, whether it be to duck dive under heavy swells, roll with cross waves or any number of other obstacles. Maybe you just swim in nice flat lakes...
No, I swim in the San Francisco Bay, which is a very long shot from flat. And i agree with you when you say swim with head out of the water, but that is not really a broken stroke, more like the same, with less roll and your head out of the water.
If you're flip turning every 25 metres you're only swimming 15m. Watch any video of a race swimmer (thorpe, hacket, phelps) and you'll see the pace they gain from kicking off the wall - that's why the world record for 400 metres is 8 seconds faster for short course than long course - an advantage that simply doesn't carry to open water swimming.
Most people do not do great underwaters like Thorpe, Hacket, or Phelps so closer to 22 meters. And i agree that there is no advantage in open water swimming like this. I am, however, trying to make the simulation of
continuous swimming, not a shorter distance. On the other side, if you do not go to the wall, that also shortens a lap. In water polo, I have done many laps 2 to 2 ( 2 meter line from the cage), and I would say that you are probably swimming more per lap with flip turns. I am sure you almost touch the wall, but then you have to go a few meters just to get to the pace for that set. I also agree that you would have to swim longer in a pool with flip turns or not than in open water to get a full simulation
As I said before, better sets and swimming more will make you a better swimmer, not learning to tumble turn. I'll bet Andy Potts spends absolutely NO time doing tumble turn drills for triathlon, but I bet he spends time doing stroke drills - even though he strokes 50 times more than he turns. There's a clue there to what's more important.
Of course, I agree that in between matters more than turns, and that Andy Potts spends little, if any time doing turn drills, but he does use turns in his training. Also, the notion that he strokes 50 times more than he turns is not true at all. If he did that he would be very slow. The ratio of strokes to turns is probably closer to 30 in a long course pool.
If you want to swim better, swim more and better sets. if you want to flip turn fine, but if people don't want to, that's fine too.
And there you go again talking about more and better sets. I agree that you need more and better sets, and I am merely offering a method to improving your workouts. I am not saying turns are the difference between an hour IM swim and an hour and a half. I am saying that in the long run, the workouts will be better and that will improve your times.
Also, I never said it was not fine, I just said it was slow and inefficient.
If you want to swim open water better, get to the ocean, swim open water and never flip turn - will be the best training for open water you can get.
Yes and no. Yes it is the best simulation, but some pool workouts are needed. It would be like doing run training without some track workouts, or bicycling without interval training.
In conclusion, turns improve workouts. They help you swim more and better sets. Yes it does have something to do with very fast times, because the sets are better. People can spend more of their time swimming, not turning around and trying to accelerate again. I recommend varying workouts between pool and open water for the best possible training, but when you are in the pool, turns make a workout efficient.