I have never completed an IM because I am 18, and that would be rather bad for my body at this point in my life, and no not ALWAYS in front, but based on other open water swims of similar distances, i would have to say at least sub 1 hour, probably in the mid 50s. As for the tumbling, there should not be that much past the first 200m, and in that case, you won't exactly be stopped then.

No, I swim in the San Francisco Bay, which is a very long shot from flat. And i agree with you when you say swim with head out of the water, but that is not really a broken stroke, more like the same, with less roll and your head out of the water.

Most people do not do great underwaters like Thorpe, Hacket, or Phelps so closer to 22 meters. And i agree that there is no advantage in open water swimming like this. I am, however, trying to make the simulation of continuous swimming, not a shorter distance. On the other side, if you do not go to the wall, that also shortens a lap. In water polo, I have done many laps 2 to 2 ( 2 meter line from the cage), and I would say that you are probably swimming more per lap with flip turns. I am sure you almost touch the wall, but then you have to go a few meters just to get to the pace for that set. I also agree that you would have to swim longer in a pool with flip turns or not than in open water to get a full simulation

Of course, I agree that in between matters more than turns, and that Andy Potts spends little, if any time doing turn drills, but he does use turns in his training. Also, the notion that he strokes 50 times more than he turns is not true at all. If he did that he would be very slow. The ratio of strokes to turns is probably closer to 30 in a long course pool.

And there you go again talking about more and better sets. I agree that you need more and better sets, and I am merely offering a method to improving your workouts. I am not saying turns are the difference between an hour IM swim and an hour and a half. I am saying that in the long run, the workouts will be better and that will improve your times.
Also, I never said it was not fine, I just said it was slow and inefficient.

Yes and no. Yes it is the best simulation, but some pool workouts are needed. It would be like doing run training without some track workouts, or bicycling without interval training.

In conclusion, turns improve workouts. They help you swim more and better sets. Yes it does have something to do with very fast times, because the sets are better. People can spend more of their time swimming, not turning around and trying to accelerate again. I recommend varying workouts between pool and open water for the best possible training, but when you are in the pool, turns make a workout efficient.

Ah grasshopper, you might be surprised then I did an IM a couple of months ago and at the halfway mark I was in a pack of around 200 people smashing each other to get around the buoys. Approaching the finish probably 100 or more funnelled through markers and there were LOTS of people stopping and starting.


Sorry to be pedantic but that's not right. I'm 1.8m tall so if I flip turn I immediately cut 3.6metres from a lap - and that's before I even push off the wall. I can easily push 2 metres off the wall so I'm losing nearly 4 metres per turn - 8 metres per lap, at least. You only need to compare swimming a 400 effort in a 25m pool against a 50m pool, the 25m is soooo much easier because you're swimming less distance.


I think you're missing the point. He turns because he's a pool swimmer and has trained like that since he was a kid. He doesn't practice it because it's not important for tris. I'd guarantee if he was training for the Olympics he WOULD practice flip turns.

If someone is starting to swim for triathlons, especially if they've never swum as a kid, they don't need to waste time learning to flip turn. You're suggesting it's an essential part of tri training whilst I think there's more valuable things to learn - like proper stroke technique, sighting and open water experience.


Actually, you said it was wrong, and it's not. In the grand scheme of things, it will make no difference to the performance of a person learning to swim for triathlon. Swimming in open water would be a far, far better way to learn to swim for open water. I'm staggered by the number of people who turn up for their first triathlon without ever having swum outside of a pool in a lane by themselves. Getting experience in open water will be the best way to improve their performance and build confidence - and confidence in the swim can be critical for 'non-swimmers'.

The message for the OP here is you can't simulate an open water swim or translate times - you have to DO it. The more you do it, the better and faster you'll be.


I have no problem with swim training, in fact I've done quite a bit of it. I'd go further and say when training for an IM it's almost a necessity but I don't subscribe to flip turns being necessary to 'improve' swim sets - but we can simply agree to disagree on that one

Does anyone have any swim times for comparison? If you can do 30s per 25 yards with a kick off the wall, what kind of time would you expect in an 800m open water (lake) triathlon?

800m = 875 yards = 35 pool lengths. So at 30s per 25yd... that's 30s*35 = 1050s or 17:30.

I would guess the kick off the wall gives me about 2s per pool length so I guess I would add 70s which would make it 18:40. But then, I don't know how much advantage a wet suit and drafting would get me. I also don't know exactly how the start and end points are situated (do you wade through the water a bit at the start and ends..?)

I'm not fast but am happy to offer my times for the exercise. I typically swim 1k in around 18 minutes in a 50m pool with minimal pushing off the wall. This is not a flat out time trial, this is my HIM/IM pace (1:48/100m). Recent IM swim (chest deep start) was 1.08 with short leg, sleeveless wetsuit = 1:47/100m.

Pros to consider
• wetsuit
• saltwater

Cons to consider:
• this is nearly 4 times the distance so there must obviously be some allowance for fatigue
• it's open ocean so not pool smooth
• this includes the run to T1 which was probably 150m in sand
• there was bad congestion at the turning buoys and last few hundred metres before the end
• I don't like to draft on the swim

The overall average male swim time was 1:33.

I've done a bit of testing and found a wetsuit and saltwater to be worth about 2 minutes per kilometre - 12 sec/100m. YMMV.

Thanks for sharing.

What do the 1.08 mean?

Wouldn't this improve your swim time average since even running in sand is faster than swimming?
Why? Is it easier to breathe or do you find you get stuck behind someone's pace?

Was 1:33 the overall average male pace or time?

68 minutes total time

only if they took 150metres off the swim. The swim is still 3.8k, they just tack on an extra 150m of sand running after it. If the timing mats were at water's edge it would be a more accurate swim time but it's not practical

I've always found it annoying swimming behind others. There's nothing worse than going along in a nice rhythm and have the person in front suddenly start doing breaststroke because they're tired. I have no problem with people breaststroking, I just don't want it right in front of me. I also find I'm constantly flicking peoples feet and I don't like that either. And if you're in waves you don't want people washing into you.

I know lots of people love drafting in the swim but it's not for me. just my 2c

Time - 93 minutes. I recall reading somewhere a few years back the overall average IM swim time was 76 minutes (maybe IMG keep tally)