seejohnbike, after reading your post, I sincerely respect your candor.

That said, I figure I can round up 12 chromoly frames from different manufacturers remove any labeling and ask a BF panel of experts whether they were hi ten or chromoly frames ? Let them ride and inspect them. How many of the 12 do you think any given expert would be duped into identifying as hi ten ? The results might surprise you ? Like I indicated you can take a lugged vintage road bike and let them ride and inspect it and if the expert relied solely on that, some wouldn't guess correctly, but how many would admit that it really came down to a 50/50 guess ?

I don't know everything there is to know, never said I did. I've learned some things here @ BF and then I've also filtered out a lot of bad advices too. I rely on personal experiences the same as the next guy. What I've offered can be taken or left just the same. Self deluded and so on, that applies to many in this world just the same, if that's the way it's perceived.