Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina

Instead of replying to each post I'll just do one post (sorry if I miss a few points).

Here's what I see in the course of running my business - one which deals with this very issue.

1. There are more carbon vendors (who also have vendors) than most people realize. Even if there were only a few these are not cookie cutter products we are talking about. There is a considerable amount of room for variation in materials and construction that is INVISIBLE to the NAKED EYE. You can't tell until it breaks or you take a hack saw to it.

2. There are some VERY good Chinese carbon vendors.

3. There are some VERY unscrupulous Chinese carbon vendors.

4. There is a certain amount of training that is required to produce carbon products. This is a hands-on process so it is more important than a machine function because there is no way to go backwards and see if it was done right. QC of carbon is difficult and expensive. QC on other things like machined parts is mostly much easier and cheaper.

5. The failure rate of products coming from Mainland Chinese factories is MUCH higher (across ANY INDUSTRY) than from other sources. The guys I drink beer with have their own trading companies in other industries and I hear this from them all the time. There is consesus.

6. If you want 100,000 pieces of something and you wanted it produced cheaply then do it in China. If you want 1000 pieces of something produced cheaply AND you want flexibilty and responsiveness from the vendor do it somewhere else. This is not China's strength.

7. I had a personal conversation with a carbon vendor (their company is known on this board and others) who told me that they are moving their entire rim production facility back from China to Taiwan because of the some of the things I've mentioned already. He said they can't get their rim/wheel program up and running (and they OWN the factory in China) because they can't get rims that are consistent enough. This is obviously a significant expense for them so it is a pretty serious problem.

8. Warranties. Warranties. Warranties. Roll the dice.

9. For those who believe that high end frames are the same thing but with nicer paint and that the premium isn't justified I say yes and no. It is certainly true that adding a brand to a frame does add to the price tag but adds no additional value but those frames are NOT the same ones being dumped on eBay. Those premium frames ARE BETTER to begin with and are more expensive to produce. The added cost is in materials and other fixed costs like R&D, proper destructive testing and marketting. They start out as being more expensive right out of the factory and this is magnified as they pass through the process to the consumer. Add a fancy brand and that tacks a few more dollars on top of that which I would agree is pure hype.

10. I am working with a new factory lately on some other projects (and maybe something exciting for my company in 2012!!!!!!) and they have a carbon frame that they can't get to pass the European standards. This frame has European approval (something passed) but the production versions aren't stacking up. They've tested several of these frames now and although they look great, they've pretty much given up and using this frame at all.

I WISH I could post video and hard data to illustrate what I am talking about but it is not my data to show or to talk about in any meaninful way. I DO have something slated for 2012 that will be my data and I am now trying to come up with a way to also do HD video of the testing (moment of failure) but I need help with this and I haven't found the right people yet.

Last point (full disclosure):

I do work in the industry but I don't sell carbon frames consumer direct in any meaningful way. I have no dog in this fight. I do source carbon frames and other parts for my customers who sell to concumers and ALL of those carbon parts come from Taiwan.

The reason I even participate in these threads is two-fold. First, I have been a member of this community for a while and I do try to be helpful when I can. I offer information/ advice or support as applicable. In short it just bugs me to see one of us potentially getting hosed. I'm just like that.

Second I have been watching an alarming trend with Chinese factories dumping on eBay or spamming boards like this one. Believe me, if this takes hold these boards will become so inundated with spam posts that they will become almost unusable. I feel that this is a legitimate comcern.

Also, these factories are really messing with the industry in terms of setting false pricing in the market place. This is where I am directly affected and do have a motive for posting in these threads (this is the disclosure part). When I see parts being sold consumer direct 1 piece at a time for LESS than I can order a 'comparable' product and I need to order 50 pieces something is just not right. I can't offer PROOF that these much less expensive items are inferior but I can do math.

The problem I have with this is once these prices take hold in the maketplace I then have to convince my customer why the products I sell are more expensive. In their minds I am now somehow a shaddy guy when in fact I am trying to offer relaible products from sources I know and trust who will back up their products. Yup, I guess that makes me the bad man.

If you've actually read this far I'm pretty surprised.

In the interest of not sounded like a dick any more than I occasionally do I am going to try to refrain from posting any more things on this matter. I've pretty much said all I have to say about cheap Chinese carbon so there really isn't any reason to go on about it any further.

/END LECTURE.