No name carbon frames?
05-01-11 | 11:54 AM
#26
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,095
Likes: 5
From: Boone, North Carolina
Bikes: 2009 Cannondale CAAD9-6 2014 Trek Domaine 5.9
yeah, grab the dogma, get the paint and graphic workup, and let us know how it looks/rides!!
Last edited by rangerdavid; 05-03-11 at 05:21 AM.
05-01-11 | 07:59 PM
#27
Mr. Dopolina
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,276
Likes: 185
From: Taiwan
Bikes: KUUPAS, Simpson VR
Instead of replying to each post I'll just do one post (sorry if I miss a few points).
Here's what I see in the course of running my business - one which deals with this very issue.
1. There are more carbon vendors (who also have vendors) than most people realize. Even if there were only a few these are not cookie cutter products we are talking about. There is a considerable amount of room for variation in materials and construction that is INVISIBLE to the NAKED EYE. You can't tell until it breaks or you take a hack saw to it.
2. There are some VERY good Chinese carbon vendors.
3. There are some VERY unscrupulous Chinese carbon vendors.
4. There is a certain amount of training that is required to produce carbon products. This is a hands-on process so it is more important than a machine function because there is no way to go backwards and see if it was done right. QC of carbon is difficult and expensive. QC on other things like machined parts is mostly much easier and cheaper.
5. The failure rate of products coming from Mainland Chinese factories is MUCH higher (across ANY INDUSTRY) than from other sources. The guys I drink beer with have their own trading companies in other industries and I hear this from them all the time. There is consesus.
6. If you want 100,000 pieces of something and you wanted it produced cheaply then do it in China. If you want 1000 pieces of something produced cheaply AND you want flexibilty and responsiveness from the vendor do it somewhere else. This is not China's strength.
7. I had a personal conversation with a carbon vendor (their company is known on this board and others) who told me that they are moving their entire rim production facility back from China to Taiwan because of the some of the things I've mentioned already. He said they can't get their rim/wheel program up and running (and they OWN the factory in China) because they can't get rims that are consistent enough. This is obviously a significant expense for them so it is a pretty serious problem.
8. Warranties. Warranties. Warranties. Roll the dice.
9. For those who believe that high end frames are the same thing but with nicer paint and that the premium isn't justified I say yes and no. It is certainly true that adding a brand to a frame does add to the price tag but adds no additional value but those frames are NOT the same ones being dumped on eBay. Those premium frames ARE BETTER to begin with and are more expensive to produce. The added cost is in materials and other fixed costs like R&D, proper destructive testing and marketting. They start out as being more expensive right out of the factory and this is magnified as they pass through the process to the consumer. Add a fancy brand and that tacks a few more dollars on top of that which I would agree is pure hype.
10. I am working with a new factory lately on some other projects (and maybe something exciting for my company in 2012!!!!!!) and they have a carbon frame that they can't get to pass the European standards. This frame has European approval (something passed) but the production versions aren't stacking up. They've tested several of these frames now and although they look great, they've pretty much given up and using this frame at all.
I WISH I could post video and hard data to illustrate what I am talking about but it is not my data to show or to talk about in any meaninful way. I DO have something slated for 2012 that will be my data and I am now trying to come up with a way to also do HD video of the testing (moment of failure) but I need help with this and I haven't found the right people yet.
Last point (full disclosure):
I do work in the industry but I don't sell carbon frames consumer direct in any meaningful way. I have no dog in this fight. I do source carbon frames and other parts for my customers who sell to concumers and ALL of those carbon parts come from Taiwan.
The reason I even participate in these threads is two-fold. First, I have been a member of this community for a while and I do try to be helpful when I can. I offer information/ advice or support as applicable. In short it just bugs me to see one of us potentially getting hosed. I'm just like that.
Second I have been watching an alarming trend with Chinese factories dumping on eBay or spamming boards like this one. Believe me, if this takes hold these boards will become so inundated with spam posts that they will become almost unusable. I feel that this is a legitimate comcern.
Also, these factories are really messing with the industry in terms of setting false pricing in the market place. This is where I am directly affected and do have a motive for posting in these threads (this is the disclosure part). When I see parts being sold consumer direct 1 piece at a time for LESS than I can order a 'comparable' product and I need to order 50 pieces something is just not right. I can't offer PROOF that these much less expensive items are inferior but I can do math.
The problem I have with this is once these prices take hold in the maketplace I then have to convince my customer why the products I sell are more expensive. In their minds I am now somehow a shaddy guy when in fact I am trying to offer relaible products from sources I know and trust who will back up their products. Yup, I guess that makes me the bad man.
If you've actually read this far I'm pretty surprised.
In the interest of not sounded like a dick any more than I occasionally do I am going to try to refrain from posting any more things on this matter. I've pretty much said all I have to say about cheap Chinese carbon so there really isn't any reason to go on about it any further.
/END LECTURE.
Here's what I see in the course of running my business - one which deals with this very issue.
1. There are more carbon vendors (who also have vendors) than most people realize. Even if there were only a few these are not cookie cutter products we are talking about. There is a considerable amount of room for variation in materials and construction that is INVISIBLE to the NAKED EYE. You can't tell until it breaks or you take a hack saw to it.
2. There are some VERY good Chinese carbon vendors.
3. There are some VERY unscrupulous Chinese carbon vendors.
4. There is a certain amount of training that is required to produce carbon products. This is a hands-on process so it is more important than a machine function because there is no way to go backwards and see if it was done right. QC of carbon is difficult and expensive. QC on other things like machined parts is mostly much easier and cheaper.
5. The failure rate of products coming from Mainland Chinese factories is MUCH higher (across ANY INDUSTRY) than from other sources. The guys I drink beer with have their own trading companies in other industries and I hear this from them all the time. There is consesus.
6. If you want 100,000 pieces of something and you wanted it produced cheaply then do it in China. If you want 1000 pieces of something produced cheaply AND you want flexibilty and responsiveness from the vendor do it somewhere else. This is not China's strength.
7. I had a personal conversation with a carbon vendor (their company is known on this board and others) who told me that they are moving their entire rim production facility back from China to Taiwan because of the some of the things I've mentioned already. He said they can't get their rim/wheel program up and running (and they OWN the factory in China) because they can't get rims that are consistent enough. This is obviously a significant expense for them so it is a pretty serious problem.
8. Warranties. Warranties. Warranties. Roll the dice.
9. For those who believe that high end frames are the same thing but with nicer paint and that the premium isn't justified I say yes and no. It is certainly true that adding a brand to a frame does add to the price tag but adds no additional value but those frames are NOT the same ones being dumped on eBay. Those premium frames ARE BETTER to begin with and are more expensive to produce. The added cost is in materials and other fixed costs like R&D, proper destructive testing and marketting. They start out as being more expensive right out of the factory and this is magnified as they pass through the process to the consumer. Add a fancy brand and that tacks a few more dollars on top of that which I would agree is pure hype.
10. I am working with a new factory lately on some other projects (and maybe something exciting for my company in 2012!!!!!!) and they have a carbon frame that they can't get to pass the European standards. This frame has European approval (something passed) but the production versions aren't stacking up. They've tested several of these frames now and although they look great, they've pretty much given up and using this frame at all.
I WISH I could post video and hard data to illustrate what I am talking about but it is not my data to show or to talk about in any meaninful way. I DO have something slated for 2012 that will be my data and I am now trying to come up with a way to also do HD video of the testing (moment of failure) but I need help with this and I haven't found the right people yet.
Last point (full disclosure):
I do work in the industry but I don't sell carbon frames consumer direct in any meaningful way. I have no dog in this fight. I do source carbon frames and other parts for my customers who sell to concumers and ALL of those carbon parts come from Taiwan.
The reason I even participate in these threads is two-fold. First, I have been a member of this community for a while and I do try to be helpful when I can. I offer information/ advice or support as applicable. In short it just bugs me to see one of us potentially getting hosed. I'm just like that.
Second I have been watching an alarming trend with Chinese factories dumping on eBay or spamming boards like this one. Believe me, if this takes hold these boards will become so inundated with spam posts that they will become almost unusable. I feel that this is a legitimate comcern.
Also, these factories are really messing with the industry in terms of setting false pricing in the market place. This is where I am directly affected and do have a motive for posting in these threads (this is the disclosure part). When I see parts being sold consumer direct 1 piece at a time for LESS than I can order a 'comparable' product and I need to order 50 pieces something is just not right. I can't offer PROOF that these much less expensive items are inferior but I can do math.
The problem I have with this is once these prices take hold in the maketplace I then have to convince my customer why the products I sell are more expensive. In their minds I am now somehow a shaddy guy when in fact I am trying to offer relaible products from sources I know and trust who will back up their products. Yup, I guess that makes me the bad man.
If you've actually read this far I'm pretty surprised.
In the interest of not sounded like a dick any more than I occasionally do I am going to try to refrain from posting any more things on this matter. I've pretty much said all I have to say about cheap Chinese carbon so there really isn't any reason to go on about it any further.
/END LECTURE.
Last edited by Bob Dopolina; 05-01-11 at 08:39 PM.
05-01-11 | 08:13 PM
#28
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,275
Likes: 6
From: SE Minnesota
Bikes: are better than yours.
Instead of replying to each post I'll just do one post (sorry if I miss a few points).
Here's what I see in the course of running my business - one which deals witrh this very issue.
1. There are more carbon vendors (who also have vendors) than most people realize. Even if there were only a few these are not cookie cutter products we are talking about. There is a considerable amount of room for variation in materials and construction that is INVISIBLE to the NAKED EYE. You can't tell until it breeaks or you take a hack saw to it.
2. There are some very good Chinese carbon vendors.
3. There are some VERY unscrupulous Chinese carbon vendors.
4. There is a certain amount of training that is required to produce carbon products. This is a hands-on process so it is more important thana machine function because there is no way to go backwards and see if it was done right. QC of carbon is difficult and expensive. QC on other things like machined parts is mostly much easier and cheaper.
5. The failure rate of products coming from Mainland Chinese factories is MUCH higher (across ANY INDUSTRY) than from other sources. The guys I drink beer with have their own trading companies in other industries and I hear this from them all the time. There is consesus.
6. If you want 100,000 pieces of something and you wanted it produced cheaply then do it in China. If you want 1000 pieces of something produced cheaply AND you want flexibilty and responsiveness from the vendor do it somewhere else. This is not China's strength.
7. I had a personal conversation with a carbon vendor (their comapny is known on this board and others) who told me that thgey are moving their entire rim production facility back from China to Taiwan because of the some of the things I've mentioned already. He said they can't get their rim/wheel program up and running (and they OWN the factory in China) because they can't get rims that are consistent enough. This is obviously a significant expense for them so it is a pretty serious problem.
8. Warranties. Warranties. Warranties. Roll the dice.
9. For those who believe that high end frames are the same thing but with nicer paint and that the premium isn't justified I say yes and no. It is certainly true that adding a brand to a frame does add to the price tag but adds no additional value but those frames are NOT the same ones being dumped on eBay. Those premium frames ARE BETTER to begin with and are more expensive to produce. The added cost is in materials and other fixed costs like R&D, proper destructive testing and marketting. They start out as being more expensive right out of the factory and this is magnified as they pass through the process to the consumer. Add a fancy brand and that tacks a few more dollars on top of that which I would agree is pure hype.
10. I am working with a new factory lately on some other projects (and maybe something exciting for my company in 2012!!!!!!) and they have a carbon frame that they can't get to pass the European standards. This frame has European approval (something passed) but the production versions aren't stacking up. They've tested several of these frames now and although they look great, they've pretty much given up and using this frame at all.
I WISH I could post video and hard data to illustrate what I am talking about but it is not my data to show or to talk about in any meaninful way. I DO have something slated for 2012 that will be my data and I am now trying to come up with a way to also do HD video of the testing (moment of failure) but I need help with this and I haven't found the right people yet.
Last point (full disclosure):
I do work in the industry but I don't sell carbon frames consumer direct in any meaningful way. I have no dog in this fight. I do source carbon frames and other parts for my customers who sell to concumers and ALL of those carbon parts come from Taiwan.
The reason I even participate in these threads is two-fold. First, I have been a member of this community for a while and I do try to be helpful when I can. I offer information/ advice or support as applicable. In short it just bugs me to see one of us potentially getting hosed. I'm just like that.
Second I have been watching an alarming trend with Chinese factories dumping on eBay or spamming boards like this one. Believe me, if this takes hold these boards will become so inundated with spam posts that they will become almost unusable. I feel that this is a legitimate comcern.
Also, these factories are really messing with the industry in terms of setting false pricing in the market place. This is where I am directly affected and do have a motive for posting in these thread (this is the disclosure part). When I see parts being sold consumer direct 1 piece at a trime for LESS than I can order a 'comparable' product and I need to order 50 pieces something is just not right. I can't offer PROOF that these much less expensive items are inferior but I can do math.
The problem I have with this is one these prices take hold in the maketplace I then have to convince my customer why the products I sell are more expensive. In their minds I am now somehow a shaddy guy when in fact I am trying to offer relaible products from sources I know and trust who will back up their products. Yup, I guess that makes me the bad man.
If you've actually read this far I'm pretty surprised.
In the interest of not sounded like a dick any more than I accasional do I am going to try to refrain from posting any more things on this matter. I've pretty much said all I have to say about cheap Chinese carbon so there really isn't any reason to go on about it any further.
/END LECTURE.
Here's what I see in the course of running my business - one which deals witrh this very issue.
1. There are more carbon vendors (who also have vendors) than most people realize. Even if there were only a few these are not cookie cutter products we are talking about. There is a considerable amount of room for variation in materials and construction that is INVISIBLE to the NAKED EYE. You can't tell until it breeaks or you take a hack saw to it.
2. There are some very good Chinese carbon vendors.
3. There are some VERY unscrupulous Chinese carbon vendors.
4. There is a certain amount of training that is required to produce carbon products. This is a hands-on process so it is more important thana machine function because there is no way to go backwards and see if it was done right. QC of carbon is difficult and expensive. QC on other things like machined parts is mostly much easier and cheaper.
5. The failure rate of products coming from Mainland Chinese factories is MUCH higher (across ANY INDUSTRY) than from other sources. The guys I drink beer with have their own trading companies in other industries and I hear this from them all the time. There is consesus.
6. If you want 100,000 pieces of something and you wanted it produced cheaply then do it in China. If you want 1000 pieces of something produced cheaply AND you want flexibilty and responsiveness from the vendor do it somewhere else. This is not China's strength.
7. I had a personal conversation with a carbon vendor (their comapny is known on this board and others) who told me that thgey are moving their entire rim production facility back from China to Taiwan because of the some of the things I've mentioned already. He said they can't get their rim/wheel program up and running (and they OWN the factory in China) because they can't get rims that are consistent enough. This is obviously a significant expense for them so it is a pretty serious problem.
8. Warranties. Warranties. Warranties. Roll the dice.
9. For those who believe that high end frames are the same thing but with nicer paint and that the premium isn't justified I say yes and no. It is certainly true that adding a brand to a frame does add to the price tag but adds no additional value but those frames are NOT the same ones being dumped on eBay. Those premium frames ARE BETTER to begin with and are more expensive to produce. The added cost is in materials and other fixed costs like R&D, proper destructive testing and marketting. They start out as being more expensive right out of the factory and this is magnified as they pass through the process to the consumer. Add a fancy brand and that tacks a few more dollars on top of that which I would agree is pure hype.
10. I am working with a new factory lately on some other projects (and maybe something exciting for my company in 2012!!!!!!) and they have a carbon frame that they can't get to pass the European standards. This frame has European approval (something passed) but the production versions aren't stacking up. They've tested several of these frames now and although they look great, they've pretty much given up and using this frame at all.
I WISH I could post video and hard data to illustrate what I am talking about but it is not my data to show or to talk about in any meaninful way. I DO have something slated for 2012 that will be my data and I am now trying to come up with a way to also do HD video of the testing (moment of failure) but I need help with this and I haven't found the right people yet.
Last point (full disclosure):
I do work in the industry but I don't sell carbon frames consumer direct in any meaningful way. I have no dog in this fight. I do source carbon frames and other parts for my customers who sell to concumers and ALL of those carbon parts come from Taiwan.
The reason I even participate in these threads is two-fold. First, I have been a member of this community for a while and I do try to be helpful when I can. I offer information/ advice or support as applicable. In short it just bugs me to see one of us potentially getting hosed. I'm just like that.
Second I have been watching an alarming trend with Chinese factories dumping on eBay or spamming boards like this one. Believe me, if this takes hold these boards will become so inundated with spam posts that they will become almost unusable. I feel that this is a legitimate comcern.
Also, these factories are really messing with the industry in terms of setting false pricing in the market place. This is where I am directly affected and do have a motive for posting in these thread (this is the disclosure part). When I see parts being sold consumer direct 1 piece at a trime for LESS than I can order a 'comparable' product and I need to order 50 pieces something is just not right. I can't offer PROOF that these much less expensive items are inferior but I can do math.
The problem I have with this is one these prices take hold in the maketplace I then have to convince my customer why the products I sell are more expensive. In their minds I am now somehow a shaddy guy when in fact I am trying to offer relaible products from sources I know and trust who will back up their products. Yup, I guess that makes me the bad man.
If you've actually read this far I'm pretty surprised.
In the interest of not sounded like a dick any more than I accasional do I am going to try to refrain from posting any more things on this matter. I've pretty much said all I have to say about cheap Chinese carbon so there really isn't any reason to go on about it any further.
/END LECTURE.
__________________
Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.
Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.
05-01-11 | 08:26 PM
#29
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,681
Likes: 253
From: Minnesota
Bikes: N+1=5
^^ To add to this, I spend a lot of time in factories in Asia and have for the last almost 20 years. Where a lot of this "unbranded" stuff comes from is the reject bin in the factory. The stuff gets moved out the back door to some uncle/friend/nephew etc... who then moves it either in a tiny street front store and/or on eBay.
The other big problem like this with stuff out of Asia is that the knockoff guys (better ones) pay a LOT of attention to the finish and then seriously cut corners underneath. For example, you could find a beautifully finished frame and then find out that the amount of carbon fiber is about half what it's supposed to be and they used cheaper epoxy instead. In point of fact, this is exactly what happened in the carbon fiber photographic tripod business as well as major production shortcuts.
So, its a crap shoot and when safety is involved, I'd give it a pass for sure. I used to be just fascinated by the "deals" until I figured out what was going on. Now I'm hugely skeptical. I've been screwed on this sort of thing much more often than I have gotten a "deal."
J.
The other big problem like this with stuff out of Asia is that the knockoff guys (better ones) pay a LOT of attention to the finish and then seriously cut corners underneath. For example, you could find a beautifully finished frame and then find out that the amount of carbon fiber is about half what it's supposed to be and they used cheaper epoxy instead. In point of fact, this is exactly what happened in the carbon fiber photographic tripod business as well as major production shortcuts.
So, its a crap shoot and when safety is involved, I'd give it a pass for sure. I used to be just fascinated by the "deals" until I figured out what was going on. Now I'm hugely skeptical. I've been screwed on this sort of thing much more often than I have gotten a "deal."
J.
Last edited by JohnJ80; 05-01-11 at 10:06 PM.
05-01-11 | 08:59 PM
#31
Jet Jockey
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,941
Likes: 30
From: St. Paul, MN
Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9, Ritchey Breakaway Cross, Nashbar X-frame bike, Bike Friday Haul-a-Day, Surly Pugsley.
Bob,
First, I'll say that I stand by my point about a bunch of marketing BS from major "labels" overinflating the pricetags of bicycles.
Second, I'll say that your post still gave me a lot to think about regarding cheap Chinese frames.
Thanks for the informative post.
First, I'll say that I stand by my point about a bunch of marketing BS from major "labels" overinflating the pricetags of bicycles.
Second, I'll say that your post still gave me a lot to think about regarding cheap Chinese frames.
Thanks for the informative post.
__________________
Good night...and good luck
Good night...and good luck
05-01-11 | 09:10 PM
#32
Mr. Dopolina
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,276
Likes: 185
From: Taiwan
Bikes: KUUPAS, Simpson VR
2. Great. If you still decide to go that route do it with perspective. Who knows, it might be the right choice for you and the product could be totally fine.
05-02-11 | 02:22 AM
#33
Pointy Helmet Tribe
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,338
Likes: 629
From: Offthebackistan
Bikes: R5, Allez Sprint, Shiv
I think the two sides of the coin are NOT mutually exclusive.
Bob's points echo my experience while working on consulting projects in the Far East for some very large Fortune 100 US clients.
I dont know enough about CF manufacturing to say one way or the other, so I will defer to his greater knowledge in this particular industry, but in general, I sort of deviate from his post when it comes to quality. IME, quality - or lack thereof - is more a function of the chosen price point, as opposed to "it is Chinese so it is not as good".
In addition, there ARE a lot of bike companies that dont do much other than find a reliable vendor with a good open-mold design, spray on their paint designs and re-sell these bikes. Some companies - eg, Planet X, Pedal Force - are quite open about this and price accordingly. Other companies... well, they dont really contribute much except overhead.
So it is possible to save money by cutting out the middleman. The risk, of course, is finding the right vendor - someone who makes a quality product, vs the uncle/nephew selling rejects. And keep in mind, it isnt ALL just uncle/nephews selling rejects. There are companies making high-quality stuff in China as well, you know. It is just that we, sitting here, dont know who's who.
While on that note: I also think we tend to oversimplify when it comes to "Western vs Asian quality". If companies like Hongfu, etc. are serious about trying to sell their products directly, there is no reason to automatically assume that they are automatically going to be unable to offer a quality product simply by virtue of being Chinese.
And I have done enough turn-around work for clients in Asia to realize that just b/c a particular US/European company is unable to make something work in China doesnt mean that someone else will also be unable to pull it off. So that whole "I know someone who tried it, and it didnt work" argument is not something I tend to accept as a truism for the industry as a whole.
Bob's points echo my experience while working on consulting projects in the Far East for some very large Fortune 100 US clients.
I dont know enough about CF manufacturing to say one way or the other, so I will defer to his greater knowledge in this particular industry, but in general, I sort of deviate from his post when it comes to quality. IME, quality - or lack thereof - is more a function of the chosen price point, as opposed to "it is Chinese so it is not as good".
In addition, there ARE a lot of bike companies that dont do much other than find a reliable vendor with a good open-mold design, spray on their paint designs and re-sell these bikes. Some companies - eg, Planet X, Pedal Force - are quite open about this and price accordingly. Other companies... well, they dont really contribute much except overhead.
So it is possible to save money by cutting out the middleman. The risk, of course, is finding the right vendor - someone who makes a quality product, vs the uncle/nephew selling rejects. And keep in mind, it isnt ALL just uncle/nephews selling rejects. There are companies making high-quality stuff in China as well, you know. It is just that we, sitting here, dont know who's who.
While on that note: I also think we tend to oversimplify when it comes to "Western vs Asian quality". If companies like Hongfu, etc. are serious about trying to sell their products directly, there is no reason to automatically assume that they are automatically going to be unable to offer a quality product simply by virtue of being Chinese.
And I have done enough turn-around work for clients in Asia to realize that just b/c a particular US/European company is unable to make something work in China doesnt mean that someone else will also be unable to pull it off. So that whole "I know someone who tried it, and it didnt work" argument is not something I tend to accept as a truism for the industry as a whole.
Last edited by guadzilla; 05-02-11 at 08:03 AM. Reason: Edit: Meant "Far East", not "Middle East"
05-02-11 | 02:51 AM
#34
Mr. Dopolina
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,276
Likes: 185
From: Taiwan
Bikes: KUUPAS, Simpson VR
I think the two sides of the coin are NOT mutually exclusive.
Bob's points echo my experience while working on consulting projects in the Middle East for some very large Fortune 100 US clients.
I dont know enough about CF manufacturing to say one way or the other, so I will defer to his greater knowledge in this particular industry, but in general, I sort of deviate from his post when it comes to quality. IME, quality - or lack thereof - is more a function of the chosen price point, as opposed to "it is Chinese so it is not as good".
Bob's points echo my experience while working on consulting projects in the Middle East for some very large Fortune 100 US clients.
I dont know enough about CF manufacturing to say one way or the other, so I will defer to his greater knowledge in this particular industry, but in general, I sort of deviate from his post when it comes to quality. IME, quality - or lack thereof - is more a function of the chosen price point, as opposed to "it is Chinese so it is not as good".
In addition, there ARE a lot of bike companies that dont do much other than find a reliable vendor with a good open-mold design, spray on their paint designs and re-sell these bikes. Some companies - eg, Planet X, Pedal Force - are quite open about this and price accordingly. Other companies... well, they dont really contribute much except overhead.
So it is possible to save money by cutting out the middleman. The risk, of course, is finding the right vendor - someone who makes a quality product, vs the uncle/nephew selling rejects. And keep in mind, it isnt ALL just uncle/nephews selling rejects. There are companies making high-quality stuff in China as well, you know. It is just that we, sitting here, dont know who's who.
While on that note: I also think we tend to oversimplify when it comes to "Western vs Asian quality". If companies like Hongfu, etc. are serious about trying to sell their products directly, there is no reason to automatically assume that they are automatically going to be unable to offer a quality product simply by virtue of being Chinese.
And I have done enough turn-around work for clients in Asia to realize that just b/c a particular US/European company is unable to make something work in China doesnt mean that someone else will also be unable to pull it off. So that whole "I know someone who tried it, and it didnt work" argument is not something I tend to accept as a truism for the industry as a whole.
If anyone is interested in what it takes to do business in China here is an excellent BBC documentary that is pretty spot on. After you watch it ask 1 question: Who got paid?
05-02-11 | 05:18 AM
#35
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,275
Likes: 6
From: SE Minnesota
Bikes: are better than yours.
In addition, there ARE a lot of bike companies that dont do much other than find a reliable vendor with a good open-mold design, spray on their paint designs and re-sell these bikes. Some companies - eg, Planet X, Pedal Force - are quite open about this and price accordingly. Other companies... well, they dont really contribute much except overhead.
__________________
Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.
Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.
05-02-11 | 07:23 AM
#37
South Carolina Ed
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,908
Likes: 320
From: Greer, SC
Bikes: Holdsworth custom, Macario Pro, Ciocc San Cristobal, Viner Nemo, Cyfac Le Mythique, Giant TCR, Tommasso Mondial, Cyfac Etoile
05-02-11 | 07:51 AM
#38
Jet Jockey
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,941
Likes: 30
From: St. Paul, MN
Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9, Ritchey Breakaway Cross, Nashbar X-frame bike, Bike Friday Haul-a-Day, Surly Pugsley.
Otherwise, my stable of bikes is sitting fine right now. It includes a Nashbar frame, an Access (Performance) frame, a Ritchey breakaway, and a Cannondale. So I have both no-name stuff and big label stuff. Funny part is, I don't have a clear favorite.
__________________
Good night...and good luck
Good night...and good luck
05-02-11 | 08:09 AM
#39
Pointy Helmet Tribe
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,338
Likes: 629
From: Offthebackistan
Bikes: R5, Allez Sprint, Shiv
Originally Posted by halfspeed
The difference between the likes of Planet X and ebay sellers is that PX is an ongoing concern owned and operated by people within the jurisdiction of western courts. Meanwhile, the ebay carbon sellers could be anyone and far, far away from any accountability. If PX is caught selling rejects, they're out of business, in court and have their reputation ruined. If the ebay seller is, he can just start up a new account and keep going.
Personally, I think the relatively minor premium that P-X, BD, etc are charging is very fair.
05-02-11 | 10:21 AM
#40
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,942
Likes: 282
From: Colorado
Great post.
Instead of replying to each post I'll just do one post (sorry if I miss a few points).
Here's what I see in the course of running my business - one which deals with this very issue.
1. There are more carbon vendors (who also have vendors) than most people realize. Even if there were only a few these are not cookie cutter products we are talking about. There is a considerable amount of room for variation in materials and construction that is INVISIBLE to the NAKED EYE. You can't tell until it breaks or you take a hack saw to it.
2. There are some VERY good Chinese carbon vendors.
3. There are some VERY unscrupulous Chinese carbon vendors.
4. There is a certain amount of training that is required to produce carbon products. This is a hands-on process so it is more important than a machine function because there is no way to go backwards and see if it was done right. QC of carbon is difficult and expensive. QC on other things like machined parts is mostly much easier and cheaper.
5. The failure rate of products coming from Mainland Chinese factories is MUCH higher (across ANY INDUSTRY) than from other sources. The guys I drink beer with have their own trading companies in other industries and I hear this from them all the time. There is consesus.
6. If you want 100,000 pieces of something and you wanted it produced cheaply then do it in China. If you want 1000 pieces of something produced cheaply AND you want flexibilty and responsiveness from the vendor do it somewhere else. This is not China's strength.
7. I had a personal conversation with a carbon vendor (their company is known on this board and others) who told me that they are moving their entire rim production facility back from China to Taiwan because of the some of the things I've mentioned already. He said they can't get their rim/wheel program up and running (and they OWN the factory in China) because they can't get rims that are consistent enough. This is obviously a significant expense for them so it is a pretty serious problem.
8. Warranties. Warranties. Warranties. Roll the dice.
9. For those who believe that high end frames are the same thing but with nicer paint and that the premium isn't justified I say yes and no. It is certainly true that adding a brand to a frame does add to the price tag but adds no additional value but those frames are NOT the same ones being dumped on eBay. Those premium frames ARE BETTER to begin with and are more expensive to produce. The added cost is in materials and other fixed costs like R&D, proper destructive testing and marketting. They start out as being more expensive right out of the factory and this is magnified as they pass through the process to the consumer. Add a fancy brand and that tacks a few more dollars on top of that which I would agree is pure hype.
10. I am working with a new factory lately on some other projects (and maybe something exciting for my company in 2012!!!!!!) and they have a carbon frame that they can't get to pass the European standards. This frame has European approval (something passed) but the production versions aren't stacking up. They've tested several of these frames now and although they look great, they've pretty much given up and using this frame at all.
I WISH I could post video and hard data to illustrate what I am talking about but it is not my data to show or to talk about in any meaninful way. I DO have something slated for 2012 that will be my data and I am now trying to come up with a way to also do HD video of the testing (moment of failure) but I need help with this and I haven't found the right people yet.
Last point (full disclosure):
I do work in the industry but I don't sell carbon frames consumer direct in any meaningful way. I have no dog in this fight. I do source carbon frames and other parts for my customers who sell to concumers and ALL of those carbon parts come from Taiwan.
The reason I even participate in these threads is two-fold. First, I have been a member of this community for a while and I do try to be helpful when I can. I offer information/ advice or support as applicable. In short it just bugs me to see one of us potentially getting hosed. I'm just like that.
Second I have been watching an alarming trend with Chinese factories dumping on eBay or spamming boards like this one. Believe me, if this takes hold these boards will become so inundated with spam posts that they will become almost unusable. I feel that this is a legitimate comcern.
Also, these factories are really messing with the industry in terms of setting false pricing in the market place. This is where I am directly affected and do have a motive for posting in these threads (this is the disclosure part). When I see parts being sold consumer direct 1 piece at a time for LESS than I can order a 'comparable' product and I need to order 50 pieces something is just not right. I can't offer PROOF that these much less expensive items are inferior but I can do math.
The problem I have with this is once these prices take hold in the maketplace I then have to convince my customer why the products I sell are more expensive. In their minds I am now somehow a shaddy guy when in fact I am trying to offer relaible products from sources I know and trust who will back up their products. Yup, I guess that makes me the bad man.
If you've actually read this far I'm pretty surprised.
In the interest of not sounded like a dick any more than I occasionally do I am going to try to refrain from posting any more things on this matter. I've pretty much said all I have to say about cheap Chinese carbon so there really isn't any reason to go on about it any further.
/END LECTURE.
Here's what I see in the course of running my business - one which deals with this very issue.
1. There are more carbon vendors (who also have vendors) than most people realize. Even if there were only a few these are not cookie cutter products we are talking about. There is a considerable amount of room for variation in materials and construction that is INVISIBLE to the NAKED EYE. You can't tell until it breaks or you take a hack saw to it.
2. There are some VERY good Chinese carbon vendors.
3. There are some VERY unscrupulous Chinese carbon vendors.
4. There is a certain amount of training that is required to produce carbon products. This is a hands-on process so it is more important than a machine function because there is no way to go backwards and see if it was done right. QC of carbon is difficult and expensive. QC on other things like machined parts is mostly much easier and cheaper.
5. The failure rate of products coming from Mainland Chinese factories is MUCH higher (across ANY INDUSTRY) than from other sources. The guys I drink beer with have their own trading companies in other industries and I hear this from them all the time. There is consesus.
6. If you want 100,000 pieces of something and you wanted it produced cheaply then do it in China. If you want 1000 pieces of something produced cheaply AND you want flexibilty and responsiveness from the vendor do it somewhere else. This is not China's strength.
7. I had a personal conversation with a carbon vendor (their company is known on this board and others) who told me that they are moving their entire rim production facility back from China to Taiwan because of the some of the things I've mentioned already. He said they can't get their rim/wheel program up and running (and they OWN the factory in China) because they can't get rims that are consistent enough. This is obviously a significant expense for them so it is a pretty serious problem.
8. Warranties. Warranties. Warranties. Roll the dice.
9. For those who believe that high end frames are the same thing but with nicer paint and that the premium isn't justified I say yes and no. It is certainly true that adding a brand to a frame does add to the price tag but adds no additional value but those frames are NOT the same ones being dumped on eBay. Those premium frames ARE BETTER to begin with and are more expensive to produce. The added cost is in materials and other fixed costs like R&D, proper destructive testing and marketting. They start out as being more expensive right out of the factory and this is magnified as they pass through the process to the consumer. Add a fancy brand and that tacks a few more dollars on top of that which I would agree is pure hype.
10. I am working with a new factory lately on some other projects (and maybe something exciting for my company in 2012!!!!!!) and they have a carbon frame that they can't get to pass the European standards. This frame has European approval (something passed) but the production versions aren't stacking up. They've tested several of these frames now and although they look great, they've pretty much given up and using this frame at all.
I WISH I could post video and hard data to illustrate what I am talking about but it is not my data to show or to talk about in any meaninful way. I DO have something slated for 2012 that will be my data and I am now trying to come up with a way to also do HD video of the testing (moment of failure) but I need help with this and I haven't found the right people yet.
Last point (full disclosure):
I do work in the industry but I don't sell carbon frames consumer direct in any meaningful way. I have no dog in this fight. I do source carbon frames and other parts for my customers who sell to concumers and ALL of those carbon parts come from Taiwan.
The reason I even participate in these threads is two-fold. First, I have been a member of this community for a while and I do try to be helpful when I can. I offer information/ advice or support as applicable. In short it just bugs me to see one of us potentially getting hosed. I'm just like that.
Second I have been watching an alarming trend with Chinese factories dumping on eBay or spamming boards like this one. Believe me, if this takes hold these boards will become so inundated with spam posts that they will become almost unusable. I feel that this is a legitimate comcern.
Also, these factories are really messing with the industry in terms of setting false pricing in the market place. This is where I am directly affected and do have a motive for posting in these threads (this is the disclosure part). When I see parts being sold consumer direct 1 piece at a time for LESS than I can order a 'comparable' product and I need to order 50 pieces something is just not right. I can't offer PROOF that these much less expensive items are inferior but I can do math.
The problem I have with this is once these prices take hold in the maketplace I then have to convince my customer why the products I sell are more expensive. In their minds I am now somehow a shaddy guy when in fact I am trying to offer relaible products from sources I know and trust who will back up their products. Yup, I guess that makes me the bad man.
If you've actually read this far I'm pretty surprised.
In the interest of not sounded like a dick any more than I occasionally do I am going to try to refrain from posting any more things on this matter. I've pretty much said all I have to say about cheap Chinese carbon so there really isn't any reason to go on about it any further.
/END LECTURE.
05-02-11 | 11:45 AM
#41
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: Burbank, CA
I own the third frame linked in the original post (bought direct from Hong-Fu). I have ridden it about 2000 miles without any problems. Even with my positive experience, your post is causing me to reevaluate how comfortable I am with this frame. Thank you for taking the time to present a well reasoned explanation based on your experiences. Even though my frame seems fine, you've given me something to think about.
Now the question is, who is going to explain to my wife that I might need to buy a new frame?
Now the question is, who is going to explain to my wife that I might need to buy a new frame?
05-02-11 | 01:40 PM
#42
Pointy Helmet Tribe
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,338
Likes: 629
From: Offthebackistan
Bikes: R5, Allez Sprint, Shiv
I'd say Hongfu is more likely to be among the "reliable" manufacturers, as opposed to the uncle/nephew flavor. You may not get the most cutting-edge frame from them, but I dont think you'll get crap either.
Most of the reviews of the Hongfu bikes are positive - have read a few QC issues about the cable guides not being installed properly or something, but empirical evidence indicates that their frames work quite well.
Most of the reviews of the Hongfu bikes are positive - have read a few QC issues about the cable guides not being installed properly or something, but empirical evidence indicates that their frames work quite well.
05-02-11 | 03:43 PM
#43
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,275
Likes: 6
From: SE Minnesota
Bikes: are better than yours.
Sure... another factor is that P-X takes on the responsibility of doing the QC on the parts, and finding the "right" partner, as opposed to the uncle/nephew. This is definitely worth a premium. How much of a premium - well, that's for each person to decide.
Personally, I think the relatively minor premium that P-X, BD, etc are charging is very fair.
__________________
Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.
Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.
05-02-11 | 04:18 PM
#44
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
From: Jacksonville, FL
Worth considering at about the same cost as the ebay no names. I bought one, but haven't built it up yet.
https://www.giantnerd.com/tommaso-tea...ike-frame.html
https://www.giantnerd.com/tommaso-tea...ike-frame.html
05-03-11 | 12:13 AM
#45
Pointy Helmet Tribe
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,338
Likes: 629
From: Offthebackistan
Bikes: R5, Allez Sprint, Shiv
BD probably does less, as they dont even unpack their boxes but are merely a warehousing provider.
In the end, the product is designed to a certain spec, the manufacturer is contracted to build to those specs and ongoing QC or warranty-based defect percentage is used to monitor the performance.
Now, the question is, do I trust Hongfu/Great Keen to build in this manner? I probably would (although I'd still pay a small premium to buy from P-X cos they are great guys to deal with and for the warranty). Others may decide differently.
05-03-11 | 05:29 AM
#46
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,095
Likes: 5
From: Boone, North Carolina
Bikes: 2009 Cannondale CAAD9-6 2014 Trek Domaine 5.9
Instead of replying to each post I'll just do one post (sorry if I miss a few points).
Here's what I see in the course of running my business - one which deals with this very issue.
1. There are more carbon vendors (who also have vendors) than most people realize. Even if there were only a few these are not cookie cutter products we are talking about. There is a considerable amount of room for variation in materials and construction that is INVISIBLE to the NAKED EYE. You can't tell until it breaks or you take a hack saw to it.
2. There are some VERY good Chinese carbon vendors.
3. There are some VERY unscrupulous Chinese carbon vendors.
4. There is a certain amount of training that is required to produce carbon products. This is a hands-on process so it is more important than a machine function because there is no way to go backwards and see if it was done right. QC of carbon is difficult and expensive. QC on other things like machined parts is mostly much easier and cheaper.
5. The failure rate of products coming from Mainland Chinese factories is MUCH higher (across ANY INDUSTRY) than from other sources. The guys I drink beer with have their own trading companies in other industries and I hear this from them all the time. There is consesus.
6. If you want 100,000 pieces of something and you wanted it produced cheaply then do it in China. If you want 1000 pieces of something produced cheaply AND you want flexibilty and responsiveness from the vendor do it somewhere else. This is not China's strength.
7. I had a personal conversation with a carbon vendor (their company is known on this board and others) who told me that they are moving their entire rim production facility back from China to Taiwan because of the some of the things I've mentioned already. He said they can't get their rim/wheel program up and running (and they OWN the factory in China) because they can't get rims that are consistent enough. This is obviously a significant expense for them so it is a pretty serious problem.
8. Warranties. Warranties. Warranties. Roll the dice.
9. For those who believe that high end frames are the same thing but with nicer paint and that the premium isn't justified I say yes and no. It is certainly true that adding a brand to a frame does add to the price tag but adds no additional value but those frames are NOT the same ones being dumped on eBay. Those premium frames ARE BETTER to begin with and are more expensive to produce. The added cost is in materials and other fixed costs like R&D, proper destructive testing and marketting. They start out as being more expensive right out of the factory and this is magnified as they pass through the process to the consumer. Add a fancy brand and that tacks a few more dollars on top of that which I would agree is pure hype.
10. I am working with a new factory lately on some other projects (and maybe something exciting for my company in 2012!!!!!!) and they have a carbon frame that they can't get to pass the European standards. This frame has European approval (something passed) but the production versions aren't stacking up. They've tested several of these frames now and although they look great, they've pretty much given up and using this frame at all.
I WISH I could post video and hard data to illustrate what I am talking about but it is not my data to show or to talk about in any meaninful way. I DO have something slated for 2012 that will be my data and I am now trying to come up with a way to also do HD video of the testing (moment of failure) but I need help with this and I haven't found the right people yet.
Last point (full disclosure):
I do work in the industry but I don't sell carbon frames consumer direct in any meaningful way. I have no dog in this fight. I do source carbon frames and other parts for my customers who sell to concumers and ALL of those carbon parts come from Taiwan.
The reason I even participate in these threads is two-fold. First, I have been a member of this community for a while and I do try to be helpful when I can. I offer information/ advice or support as applicable. In short it just bugs me to see one of us potentially getting hosed. I'm just like that.
Second I have been watching an alarming trend with Chinese factories dumping on eBay or spamming boards like this one. Believe me, if this takes hold these boards will become so inundated with spam posts that they will become almost unusable. I feel that this is a legitimate comcern.
Also, these factories are really messing with the industry in terms of setting false pricing in the market place. This is where I am directly affected and do have a motive for posting in these threads (this is the disclosure part). When I see parts being sold consumer direct 1 piece at a time for LESS than I can order a 'comparable' product and I need to order 50 pieces something is just not right. I can't offer PROOF that these much less expensive items are inferior but I can do math.
The problem I have with this is once these prices take hold in the maketplace I then have to convince my customer why the products I sell are more expensive. In their minds I am now somehow a shaddy guy when in fact I am trying to offer relaible products from sources I know and trust who will back up their products. Yup, I guess that makes me the bad man.
If you've actually read this far I'm pretty surprised.
In the interest of not sounded like a dick any more than I occasionally do I am going to try to refrain from posting any more things on this matter. I've pretty much said all I have to say about cheap Chinese carbon so there really isn't any reason to go on about it any further.
/END LECTURE.
Here's what I see in the course of running my business - one which deals with this very issue.
1. There are more carbon vendors (who also have vendors) than most people realize. Even if there were only a few these are not cookie cutter products we are talking about. There is a considerable amount of room for variation in materials and construction that is INVISIBLE to the NAKED EYE. You can't tell until it breaks or you take a hack saw to it.
2. There are some VERY good Chinese carbon vendors.
3. There are some VERY unscrupulous Chinese carbon vendors.
4. There is a certain amount of training that is required to produce carbon products. This is a hands-on process so it is more important than a machine function because there is no way to go backwards and see if it was done right. QC of carbon is difficult and expensive. QC on other things like machined parts is mostly much easier and cheaper.
5. The failure rate of products coming from Mainland Chinese factories is MUCH higher (across ANY INDUSTRY) than from other sources. The guys I drink beer with have their own trading companies in other industries and I hear this from them all the time. There is consesus.
6. If you want 100,000 pieces of something and you wanted it produced cheaply then do it in China. If you want 1000 pieces of something produced cheaply AND you want flexibilty and responsiveness from the vendor do it somewhere else. This is not China's strength.
7. I had a personal conversation with a carbon vendor (their company is known on this board and others) who told me that they are moving their entire rim production facility back from China to Taiwan because of the some of the things I've mentioned already. He said they can't get their rim/wheel program up and running (and they OWN the factory in China) because they can't get rims that are consistent enough. This is obviously a significant expense for them so it is a pretty serious problem.
8. Warranties. Warranties. Warranties. Roll the dice.
9. For those who believe that high end frames are the same thing but with nicer paint and that the premium isn't justified I say yes and no. It is certainly true that adding a brand to a frame does add to the price tag but adds no additional value but those frames are NOT the same ones being dumped on eBay. Those premium frames ARE BETTER to begin with and are more expensive to produce. The added cost is in materials and other fixed costs like R&D, proper destructive testing and marketting. They start out as being more expensive right out of the factory and this is magnified as they pass through the process to the consumer. Add a fancy brand and that tacks a few more dollars on top of that which I would agree is pure hype.
10. I am working with a new factory lately on some other projects (and maybe something exciting for my company in 2012!!!!!!) and they have a carbon frame that they can't get to pass the European standards. This frame has European approval (something passed) but the production versions aren't stacking up. They've tested several of these frames now and although they look great, they've pretty much given up and using this frame at all.
I WISH I could post video and hard data to illustrate what I am talking about but it is not my data to show or to talk about in any meaninful way. I DO have something slated for 2012 that will be my data and I am now trying to come up with a way to also do HD video of the testing (moment of failure) but I need help with this and I haven't found the right people yet.
Last point (full disclosure):
I do work in the industry but I don't sell carbon frames consumer direct in any meaningful way. I have no dog in this fight. I do source carbon frames and other parts for my customers who sell to concumers and ALL of those carbon parts come from Taiwan.
The reason I even participate in these threads is two-fold. First, I have been a member of this community for a while and I do try to be helpful when I can. I offer information/ advice or support as applicable. In short it just bugs me to see one of us potentially getting hosed. I'm just like that.
Second I have been watching an alarming trend with Chinese factories dumping on eBay or spamming boards like this one. Believe me, if this takes hold these boards will become so inundated with spam posts that they will become almost unusable. I feel that this is a legitimate comcern.
Also, these factories are really messing with the industry in terms of setting false pricing in the market place. This is where I am directly affected and do have a motive for posting in these threads (this is the disclosure part). When I see parts being sold consumer direct 1 piece at a time for LESS than I can order a 'comparable' product and I need to order 50 pieces something is just not right. I can't offer PROOF that these much less expensive items are inferior but I can do math.
The problem I have with this is once these prices take hold in the maketplace I then have to convince my customer why the products I sell are more expensive. In their minds I am now somehow a shaddy guy when in fact I am trying to offer relaible products from sources I know and trust who will back up their products. Yup, I guess that makes me the bad man.
If you've actually read this far I'm pretty surprised.
In the interest of not sounded like a dick any more than I occasionally do I am going to try to refrain from posting any more things on this matter. I've pretty much said all I have to say about cheap Chinese carbon so there really isn't any reason to go on about it any further.
/END LECTURE.
Thanks for one of the most informative posts on BF in quite a while.
05-03-11 | 07:06 PM
#47
Rides with Scissors
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 607
Likes: 0
From: Franklin, Tennessee
Bikes: 2011 Trek Madone 5.2
Well I guess I just messed up................yesterday I ordered carbon bottle cages from Hong Kong on ebay!
$22.00 for two cages, for my new carbon biek, was alot cheaper than the $89 dollars for the OEM carbon cages and i got drawn in. They will probably have a failure in a long ride that will cause me to lose my bottle and cause me to suffer from dehydration. Should I trust these cages..oh the agony of the decision!
$22.00 for two cages, for my new carbon biek, was alot cheaper than the $89 dollars for the OEM carbon cages and i got drawn in. They will probably have a failure in a long ride that will cause me to lose my bottle and cause me to suffer from dehydration. Should I trust these cages..oh the agony of the decision!
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eddiepliers
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