So the plot thickens with Fongers added to the mix... Fongers made some real nice frames back in the day, my dad had one. I believe Elev12k sold one recently, right? Besides, those modern RIH's and older less Amsterdammy ones are still miles ahead of most that is and was offered on the market. Just not in possession of the panache of a real Jordaan made frame by true craftsman, but better then most run of the mill Batavi and Gazelles.