I see those ciocc and guercs the same as the Boulder Herses. Their sold by Boulder Cycles but built by Waterford. I'm not knocking on Waterford as they build an amazing frame but it's just not the same. I guess the same goes for those exact same brands when they were imported by TSD back in the 80's. Mind you they were actually built in Italy but came here as blank frames and painted here(which honestly was better quality) but just doesn't have that same originality in my booked as something completely built at that builders shop. Sorry just my .02