himespau 

Yeah, but [MENTION=364302]Doge[/MENTION] is of the mindset that as long as something is technically within the rules, you should use them to your utmost advantage. He just doesn't think TUEs should be allowed within the rules. At least that's how I understand his posts. Oh, and he also doesn't think you should have to use safety pins or keep your number unrumpled.

Doge

Riders exploit rules to their advantage and are happy to take that advantage over other riders.

[MENTION=129463]himespau[/MENTION] pretty much has it correct. Except saying I expect it, or teams *should* do it is not saying I like it. It is saying that when there is an opportunity to exploit a rule and also gain an advantage that is what professional teams do to win. It is not unique to cycling. So if we don't like a behavior, we have to make a rule, or take one away so everyone competes on the same level. You can't rely on competitors at the highest level to police themselves.

I do not believe TUEs can be administrated fairly. So, I favor taking them away. If Wiggins, Froome can't win without a TUE, then I think they are less of a physical champion. That is not fair to say someone has to compete with a cold, or allergy or bee sting. In trying to make things fair for a few, all kinds of opportunities to exploit situations are created. It is not fair that when they crash or have a mechanical they are not supposed to get a ride back either. Or free laps rules where 3 go down and 20 restart due to the crash so they can take a break and rest rather than chase on like the rules say. It is part of the randomness of the sport that can be slightly influenced by behavior and choices For example they can choose more robust tires and reduce the chance of a puncture and therefore the need to pace back on.

So I'd just keep the fair part out of it and have them try to do something they can control. Right now, they cannot control TUES, or the information about them (keep them private).



As to pins on numbers - I saw a whole bunch of 77 spray and "pre-softened" numbers at Nationals. Seems like > 50%.

topflightpro

Wow. Digging deep there. We haven't had that discussion in a long time.

Doge

It was an un-written rule that numbers be pinned, and folks were quite upset it was not being followed. Yet, written rules are ignored all the time. I doubt that same discussion now would generate any concern. Gluing numbers is common. At the collegiate TTT in front of the current USA technical director junior crumpled and glued his number. The discussion was now about the IAB position and what is meant by "no forearm support".

Sports evolve by pushing the limits.

Lemond's TT bars were as advantageous as Fignon bike which is now banned. Neither were cheaters (for the bikes). Moser's bike, the Superman position, banned now, no-one was a cheater. USA 84 team was blood doping-allowed then, not now.

Things done with the body often have less risk than unsafe roads or equipment, or riding style, but create very strong reactions. I get that.

Not all PEDs are the same, just like going off the road in too hot a turn is not the same. Somehow one caries a moral association with it, and the other doesn't. In both cases you are injured or dead.

If it was "my way" and it isn't, there would be 0 batteries or electronics on bikes and 0 TUEs and everyone would be allowed the same equipment. As long as it is not that way, I think competitors exploiting every opportunity is expected.

himespau 

So a true Merckx-style race minus the amphetamines? Only neutral support cars with spare bikes/wheels?

Doge

Merckx I don't care about. Allow any mechanical bike. Choose your bike before the start and don't expect help. NO wheel or bike support. Choose wisely. If 200+ start and 20 can't finish due to mechanical issues, 20 have colds and 20 have allergies there is next year. The TdF is too sanitized right now so about the only thing that is interesting is the drug controversy, the crashes and who attacked when they should have waited. There would be so much more without the computers and radios and support cars.

I would allow spectator mechanical parts help (as they do it anyway, although not allowed). Paris Roubaix there are thousands (really) of spares on the side if you are not riding discs. That also increases community involvement. Broken down racer pro gets to ride my wheels, and I get your flat - and the story to tell.

Racer Ex 

Speaking of mechanical parts help:

53-year-old amateur rider caught using hidden motor at Italian race | Cyclingnews.com

Doge

I was thinking we over 50 folks should be able to get TUEs for motors or the T so we can keep up with the kids.
We can have the same committees that figure out what help is not an advantage and could adjust dose and motor power accordingly to make us just like 28 year olds.

Racer Ex 

I think we should just be allowed to frame pump anyone under 40. Frame pump being a reference lost on anyone under 40.

"He stuck a metal stick in my spokes!"

miyata man

Cinzano ftw

Doge

I was too nice for that...

In those days I had my own Dupont Imron matching Eddie stopper with the brass Campy head. It worked much better than the Silca plastic thing.

Ygduf

top times in that other sport. guys lined out in red have been busted.

himespau 

So either Bolt is impossibly better than everyone else, or...

Ygduf

is what I've always believed anyway. Just the prevalence of doping, even among his Jamaican training partners, is damning. He's either dirty, or he should be incredibly pissed.

Doge

It is easier to get numbers for Olympic sports.

Hermes

https://www.usada.org/growing-eviden...-athlete-risk/ I check out USADA from time to time to maintain compliance and Ostarine popped up today as a prohibited substance that is showing up in supplements. Embedded in the narrative is the list of high risk supplements.

I must admit some of the names on the list are pretty funny although the ingredients are no laughing matter. One of my favorite names that I thought would be a big seller on this forum is Xtreme Mass.

himespau 

Given the time's he's pulled up and started celebrating before he crossed the line, he should have at least a quarter second on his nearest clean competitor. I want to believe he's clean, I really do, but then I wanted to believe in Lance for at least the first 5 or so of his yellow jerseys.

EricT80

If you look at the guys he's beaten and the fact they've all been busted along with who his coach is and it's about 99.99999% certain he's doping.

Doge

Do you cross reference to WADA too? They are pretty much the same list - but aren't.

From his clip - "If you decide to use supplements..." said like the level they are really concerned about don't.
"and some omit ostarine from the label entirely or use misleading names to confuse consumers."


That is a pretty big list of things that include things not listed for an amateur to watch out for - or possibly get labeled a cheater. I tend to believe many were positive by accident, but it is hard to tell and even accidental use can be performance enhancing.

tetonrider

last night i posted a link to the article with the chart you posted above, so you pretty much know how i feel.

that said, i read this today and understand a bit more about Gatlin as a 'dirty' athlete:
Demonizing Justin Gatlin

people throw around '2-time doper', and i have to admit i never really knew much about his case. i'm sure there are more subtleties to many of these cases.

read that article. the first bust seems understandable. the 2nd one seems a bit crazy, but on the other hand there is also a bit of doubt.

still, i think the sport of T&F is incredibly dirty overall.

mattm

Is there any high-level sport that's clean?

TheKillerPenguin

Curling maybe?

topflightpro

The U.S. program is as bad as the old Soviet blocks. There have been countless stories about how dirty Alberto Salazar and the Nike Oregon Project is.

gl98115

Swedish Paralympic curler fails drug test

Doge

I don't believe so when it matters.

I believe a QB can be clean with his line that is protecting him juiced up.

In the TdF Nibali is not on record for ever taking a PED (I think) - legal or not.
But he had a doped teammate pulling him up the hill.

Does that mean he is clean - even if he had no knowledge of it, but still benefited from it?