mattm

Is nothing sacred??

Ygduf

aaaddddeeeerrrraaaallllll tho

Doge

As it has been almost a year (in my mind) since I have repeated my self on this:

As PEDs are used,legal or not in all performance sports,
and there are many banned substances not even on labels that someone could accidentally take,
and the whole TUE thing gives an advantage over the takers natural state, and over many that don't need the TUE's PED,
and we spend a whole lot of time and money on determining intent,
and at the top level it is never a ethical, moral calculation, only a risk management one...

What is the best fix?

tetonrider

doubtful.

oddly, i'd say that cycling at the professional level is much cleaner today than many other sports. it's also painted itself into a bad corner and manages to look worse for far less serious stuff than what is routine in other sports.

miyata man

Hmm, not really. There is an analogy about the Mississippi that fits very neatly here. 60's-90's pollution in the river was awful. Trash especially though quite a bit of waste got dumped in there as well. By 2000 the eco movement and regulation that kept people from say, flushing their radiator on a street the sewer emptied into a feeder stream, returned a lot of the natural beauty to the upper stretches.

Then someone got bright and decided to step outside their job of assessing federal mandated water quality standards in samples and see what was actually in there a mere couple hundred miles into it's journey to the ocean. Big surprise, 3M indicators to validate their patent and a few thousand other identifiable raw chemicals or byproducts that could be easily traced to their manufactured source. Geez that water looks so much cleaner, but in reality what is actually in there is much deadlier than the plastic six pack holders and old tires that were so easy to see with the native eye.

I will repeat something as well. Discussing any part of the body of doping offenses is like stabbing a puddle it has been so overly examined. Time to actually start looking what is in there.

Doge

Here is my "fix" (again) given the complexities of the matter. Treat it like a mechanical/factual event.

-Cut the list by 75%. Keep bad stuff on it.
-No TUEs. If it bad stuff - it is bad. If you need it - you are not the level of those that don't.
-Positive tests determine sanction. There should be no consideration for intent/mistakes allowed. Found with it - so sorry. It may have been a mistake. Be more careful next time and move on.
-Decrease penalties. Positive test does not mean a rider cheated. It means they were not compliant.
-Penalize all riders on the team that would benefit from that non-compliance. A banned PED positive for one rider and team is DQ'd.
-Penalize persistent infringement. OK for some PEDs to carry bigger sanctions. But regardless of intent/mistakes.
-No witch hunts. Put a statute of limitation on things. It is part of the game (that should be a fact to all by now).

Other stuff like "ruining peoples lives", lying, bribing etc should be treated as they are. Those are not PED offences. I expect those accused of cheating to deny it.

*I say non compliance as it pertains to non PED use as well, blood doping, etc.

FFJ

I'd be 100% on board with this.

mattm

wut

wut x 2

topflightpro

I think Doge is making some sense here. Decrease the first penalty but apply it to all positives, regardless of happenstance. So, if someone accidentally ingests tainted meat or makes out with their girlfriend who was taken medication, they are suspended. There is no arbitration panel or review.

And I agree with the statute of limitations too. Why should they be going back five years to bust someone who is now not even competing anymore?

I disagree with suspending a whole team though for one person's actions. I get Doge's rationale, but I don't agree with it.

Doge

Wut #1 Positive test means just that. There are currently lots of ways to be positive. Mistakes happen. See video - taking supplements have stuff not even on the list.

Right now, the athlete says - "it was an accident" and time and money is spent in a hearing and seems to me the penalties are not all that consistent.

I'm suggesting we don't need to know if they meant to do it or not. We save money on hearings etc. We say the rider is responsible - on purpose or not. They pay the price.

This brings cost of enforcement down and allows more testing and penalties. I think riders seeing those busted more often - accident or not, is more effective that seeing fewer riders really get slammed and labeled as cheaters.

himespau 

I do think a statute of limitations might limit the chances of having to vacate 7 straight tours because we can't know who was clean. On the other hand, it's hard awarding things retroactively because people might have raced differently had Lance not been out in front of the standings.

TheKillerPenguin

1)I like that being at the pointy end does not require putting **** in my body that will damage it in the long-term. I wouldn't take anything more than I currently take, which amounts to a multivitamin and beta-alanine (I don't eat red meat)
2) it's annoying enough having to buy speed in the form of aero equipment. You're telling me that in addition to that crap I also need to buy a ton of legal PEDs to be competitive?
3) You're telling me in addition to quantifying everything I do on TrainingPeaks and everything I eat on MyFitnessPal I also need to keep a drug diary?

Doge

The gamesmanship / PEDs / working the angles are part of every serious sport I've seen. That sounds absurd to many, but hard to show it isn't. The athletes are always working the officials and are motivated to get away with things. We may not like that, but I take that as fact (my opinion it is fact).

There needs to be a close on the event / when a winner is a winner. It does not have to be that day, or when the award is done, but breaking rules is part of sports and it is the officials and authorities job to ensure competition is as correct as possible. They need to determine when that is. But leaving things open is just messy.

We can wait for the test to come in. But beat the test then - you are done. We don't need to go back and retest every athlete every time there are new improved testing methods.

Again a copy from the soccer world. We now know Diego Maradona's hand of god goal was handling the ball.
That changed who won the World Cup. Had that been discovered after the referee restarted play, it would not have mattered. Soccer did that because they also wanted finality and knew the impact of trying to unravel things.

We can wait a year until the event rolls around again, but to quote Horner "I know who won those 7 Tours".

Doge

I shouldn't have named the penalty. But it is a hole that needs to be dealt with.
Team penalties ensure everyone looks out for the other. Like the team runs laps when one player is late, works real well to get everyone on time. Same idea, maybe the penalty was too harsh.

The reason is even the innocent are advantaged by teammates cheating, and not just drugs.
So when the team has benefited, that benefit should be taken away.

Using a somewhat extreme example (or is it).
Race says they test the top 5.
Team has juiced up domestics
They take turns sacrificing for their clean leader (who may be innocent, or may know)
They purposely finish outside the top tested group.
On rare occasion they may get caught on a random test.
The GC guy benefited.

That is where I want the team penalty.

himespau 

I get your rationale and your earlier example of how a clean quarterback or running back would have a huge advantage if his juiced line kept his jersey clean all game, but I still feel bad for the innocent teammates who didn't know. It's looking like the university that employs me is going to have to vacate a recent ncaa basketball championship and final four appearances because several of it's players have been retroactively termed ineligible (because strippers and prostitutes were allegedly used to recruit/retain them). I feel bad for their teammates who weren't good enough to get the special treatment who will also lose their titles (assuming they didn't know about it and choose to keep quiet). On the other hand, they won't lose the memories and I doubt anyone is going to come calling for their rings. It makes a mess though for the teams that lost to them, because now they lost to nobody and the lower teams in the bracket will always wonder, "what if"... Then the guys who came here after the fact are the ones that get hit with the penalties. One the other hand, I get that a message has to be sent.

tetonrider

timely: Icarus on Netflix.

Doping, cycling, amateurs, Russia.

trainsktg

Just watched it a few days ago. Gripping, Tom Clancy stuff.

Setting aside the main focus of the film for a moment, the one thing that legitimately shocked me was how apparently easy it is for an older person to go to an 'anti-aging' doctor and get prescriptions for growth hormone, testosterone and apparently steroids too. Dude's kitchen and fridge looked like an ERs with all the bottles and needles scattered about. Being an over-50 athlete myself, I had a co-worker once try to talk me down this route several years ago. He juiced, I just had no idea it was that easy.

Keith

tetonrider

honestly, i'm shocked you found that shocking. i agree the amount of stuff he was doing + needles was crazy (never saw all that before), but around here it seems common knowledge that old guys can easily get anything they want from the "anti-aging" docs.

i used to coach 2 riders who told me their doctors would actively encourage them to take a bunch of stuff which they happened to know was banned -- though to be fair the doctors might not have known it was banned in competition. point is they had to actively AVOID it.

trainsktg

Yep, I was. Kinda confirms what my doctor said to me a few months ago about even the serious club rider these days being on EPO or other.

Keith

miyata man

It fails to surprise me when I go see a Dr and they are unable to provide anything but drugs.

Of the late the option has been to suggest a blood test "just to make sure nothing unwanted is floating around in there." Right, now we're concerned about that.

TheKillerPenguin

I really don't think all that many people are taking PEDs. Believing in that is a good way to excuse your own crappy riding though!

Racer Ex 

Wish I could agree with that, but we might have to nail down what you mean by "all that many". Given the miniscule number of tests in the amateur ranks, to the ratio of positives to tests, and throw in my list of "dopers I have raced against", then multiply that by the number of people who are faster at 50 than they were at 30, and we're going to have to push "all that many" into a pretty good %.

I'm done with racing. Too many cheaters, too many drugs. Going old school. Buying a farm and am going to raise show quality livestock. Solid, middle America values like honestly and fair play. Something we can pass on to our kids.

revchuck 

Dang, Ex, that article is 22 years old!

miyata man

Why move, you can do back alley booty implants for hot dollars and low hours.

It is very clear few remember what eradication, instead of backbending, means when it comes to dealing with unwanted influences growing bolder.

Racer Ex 

Yeah. But I'm sure it's all better now. Those were the bad old days of junior livestock shows. Much cleaner now that they require whereabouts forms for the sheep and biological passports for the cows.