TheKillerPenguin

The last omnium I did was years ago and I believe it was a 3/4 mix, so I may be conflating standard issue shenanigans with omnium specific antics.

canuckbelle

I think he meant that they're done on *time* so the TT winner just has to finish with the pack in the crit to maintain the time lead for the win. But all the omniums I see are place-based, not time-based. So that wouldn't work.

wens

By definition stage race = based on time, omnium = based on points.

spectastic

I wasn't actually sure what tail gunning means either, until now as it just occurred to me that it probably means drafting behind people. i think i might have confused omniums with stage races - still don't know what the difference really is. the one that i remember doing was based on time. the pack finishes all had the same time, meaning you could finish in 10th or even 20th and still lose less than 5 seconds, meaning the tt made all the difference. it's a stupid system for a 3x stage race imo

grwoolf

Being a strong-ish TT guy, I much prefer the stage race format. The stage races I’ve been in also include time bonuses for at least the first 3 spots in the crit and RR and sometimes other intermediate sprint/KOM time bonuses as well. It resolves the issue of people sprinting for 20th place (mostly). The TT is still really important, but the time bonuses make the tactics very interesting.

jdms mvp

So stage races can be scored by time or by 'omnium points'

time is time. Lowest cumulative time to complete all 3 stages wins. TT = X time, and usually in the CRIT and RR, a pack shows 'same time'. Although i've been in stage races where they go down to millisecond and will scored placings by millisecond.... which slightly changes the dynamic of a time based stage race as u said.

Omnium scoring as stated above is points based on placings. lowest cumulative points after 3 stages wins.

tail gunning, the way i define it, is sitting at the back of a large front pack, but still there who will get the same time as the whole group no matter how long or little the line stretches. Tail gunner like a b52 bomber, still attached.

im not saying anything is wrong with either setup, but i'll categorize dudes, who probably come from a triathlete background, who show up only to 3 stage races a year looking to upgrade vs dudes who 'race' imho all year around. This is like USAC amateur hour, not peaking for le tour TT and tail gunning packs up cat4 climbs to win GC

spectastic

I'm the opposite: a poor tt guy, largely due to the lack of proper equipment. never really understood why buy an expensive bike for those few races and times that they're ridden.

spectastic

thanks for clearing that up.

aaronmcd

When one gets 10 seconds for 1st place it means nothing compared to the 2 minutes lost in a TT.

I think of a stage race as a fun weekend of racing with a nice road race as the highlight.

Chico 3/4 was won by a guy that was good all around though. Won the circuit race, 3rd in road, won TT by 30 seconds, 5th in crit. With his TT, he would have won without time bonuses.

Doge

There is typically a bigger spread in 3/4 than in P/1 and junior selection is typically very narrow.
Reason I expect is some 3/4s are P1 power - they just have to go through the upgrade, learning system, where that kind of dominance is not seen as often at the higher levels.

jdms mvp

spaceships are fun to ride. But living that upgrade life. GC points could* be useful to some, and if u can TT 'ok' , but race consistently in RR and Crits, then u might get some good results overall.

i will never win a GC nor will i win a 40km TT, but staying in contention with my spaceship on stage races def was needed for that cat1 hella hype upgrizzle last year

TheKillerPenguin

Equipment matters, but engine matters more. You can get most of the way there with clip on bars and experimenting with position. Rock a tt helmet, skinsuit, and your race wheels and if you've got the motor you probably won't win the stage, but you'll be close enough that you can still win the overall.

wens

So many upgrade points for stage races too. Between that and the being able to more conveniently train in pursuit position, I'm looking really hard at getting a spaceship.

jdms mvp

grwoolf

I've only done 2 stage races, but the winner of the TT didn't win GC in either case despite having a huge advantage going into the RR. In both cases, other contenders attacked until leader/team could no longer cover. It makes for interesting racing, particularly when the TT isn't last. Lots of bib numbers and times written on the top tube to keep everyone straight.

I wish there were more stage races, but I get the challenge putting on a multi-day event. They killed the Fayetteville stage race this year, I was so bummed. I'd love a 1 day event with RR and TT, but I have not seen that format. Is there a rule that a stage race must have at least 3 stages?

Racer Ex 

So they should change the TDF to an omnium format?

FWIW I've won more than a couple omniums and stage races. And I'm a pretty good TT guy. So my view on this has zip to do with self interest.

Omniums are good for promoters. Otherwise, as pointed out, you end up with field sprints that are a cluster. Or races where the field sits on it's hands, rides 15 MPH, chases everything in the top 10, and let's people ride away and finish 10 minutes in front of the pack. The lamest races I've ever been in have been omniums. The absolute worst was with a guy who was one point behind me and literally rode to a dead stop in the crit rather than come around to take a pull. I Friere'd him at the line which made it even sweeter.

No one who wants to win GC can get away with that in a stage race.

And the only way a pure TT beast wins a stage race is if the field lets them. Pretty easy to rip a "TT only" guy apart. I've taken minutes out of guys in a crit, won on a KOM time bonus, killed in the RR and had 2-3 teams get together to attack me when I've won the TT and gotten knocked down off the top podium step. Just takes a little sack and aggressive riding, and a willingness not to settle for 8th or whatever.

FWIW a lack of TT ability is most often on that individual. TT's take discipline, practice, and hard work. Folks with low FTP's can TT quite well, I know several, and I've seen massive improvements in TT ability when folks actually try to improve their TT ability. And using equipment as an excuse is a poor excuse. I can set up a pretty decent TT bike for <$800. I could take that bike and beat guys on $10,000 TT rigs. I might beat them by 1-2% more on my blingmobile.

Again, TT's take discipline, practice, and hard work. Prior to my injury I would ride my TT bike 2-3 times a week, including doing some 2-3 hour climbing rides (actually heading out on the BMC for a climbing ride today). The benefits to working on your TT are numerous and make you a better racer in other disciplines.

Doge

You ideally ride the omnium and SR differently. If doing an Omnium TT - save some beans once you've won. SR TT - it is usually worth going all in.

Junior will typically do well in the TT, and if it is stage 1 - he will be marked. Marked so much that winning a RR stage after that is hard enough - he doesn't try. But that allows other unlikely winners a shot they would not have in a single day as they get the opportunity to go because they are not seen as a threat. Winning a SR stage (vs omnium) is one of the easier ways to get upgrade points IMO for that reason.

Racer Ex 

Problem with that is figuring out when's you've won the TT. Few people have a DS and an earbud.

Fun stage race story. Won the TT by a couple of seconds. Held serve stage 2. 10/5/3s time bonus for the stage 3 RR finish. 5/3/1 hot spot. By myself. Teams A/B/C conspire to gutter me on a long crosswind section. I hang on and watch the teams wipe themselves out. End up with 6 guys: me, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 2 other guys. 2nd, 4th and other guy are teammates. So are 3rd and the last guy. 3rd and 4th are down like 30 and 40s. The other guys are down decades.

So I'm playing 5 on 1, 3 on one, and two on one. This will be interesting.

Hotspot sprint and 2nd (future teammate and TT WC BTW) and I drop the field and haul ass up the hill. He nips me by a tire. Few minutes later we're told they are negating the hot spot due to a center line violation. "Sucks to be you" was my comment to 2nd, followed up by "I would be sooo pissed if that happened to me" and "man, you really killed yourself there". Hey, I'll play the occasional head game.

Much attacking follows. 2nd sits on my wheel grinning. At one point I'm chasing 2nds tweo teammates and try to get 3rd and his teammate to help. They don't, but instead attack 2nd and I. Fair enough. We look at each other, and bring them back, and I continue on to shut down the other folks.

More misc attacking. 3rd attacks solo and 2nd and I shut him down. Finally 4th place (2nds teammate) does a nice counter attack near the finish. 3rd place sits. Really? Because if it stays together he's on the podium, if 4th gets 10s he's not. I commence to explain the facts of life to 3rd place:

"Dude, you're off the podium right now, and you're not going to take 30s out of either of us. We're both going to drop you on the hill so you and your teammate might want to help pull that back". Still no help.

I'm literally doing the time gap every minute or two and the math. Gonna be close. But if I work to pull this back my rival is going to be able to attack or take the sprint for sure.

4th crosses the line with his hands up. Up the finishing hill and it's the same result as the hotspot. 2nd nips me by tire. Turns out 4th comes in 32 seconds in front of us. With the time bonus he takes GC by two seconds. Well played. My rival and I are tied on time, the TT is the tiebreaker so Racer Ex gets second, rival gets third.

And 3rd, gets knocked off the podium, despite having a teammate in the break.

Great example of how stage racing interests are fluid, how a smart team can steal the candy, and how you can shoot yourself in the foot.

hack

So very true and I just experienced this at Chico this past weekend. Won my RR, second in the crit, but got destroyed in the TT (5th place and lost 90s to winner). I knew going in that the TT was going to be my weak point since I hadn't really ridden the TT bike for two months before the race (shoulder injury prevented me from doing so). I did the first half or so in a decent position, but the last half was a mess and I had to consistently come out of position due to triceps fatigue. The guys that beat me were all about the same in watts/kg, but they spend a lot more time on that bike than I do.

I still cut 90s off my previous year's effort (down to 23:26), but our winner knocked out a 22:06. I think if I had been able to stay in a good position for the duration, I'd have been down around 22:30-22:40 or so and with my time bonuses would have been on the GC podium. Will be adding at least one more day per week on the TT bike to the riding schedule.

Racer Ex 

Still a damn good ride and result. You got the shovel out and dug hard.

------

Mulling this while riding my TT bike, I'll add yet more reason(s) why omniums are lame from a racing point of view.

a) You can skip a stage completely.

b) The omnium winner can be decided after two events, rendering the last race moot.

You don't get that with a stage race. Several years ago I was in an event where a guy went into the (last stage) crit with 2:00 advantage. Two minutes. Won the TT, won the RR. Sitting pretty, because who can lose two minutes in a crit?

Omnium, he could have gone home. But the gaps between the rest of the field were tiny. So two guys went OTF from the gun. They were like 10th and 11th. Omnium corpses.

Before the leader reacted they had a minute. Then 1:15. On a technical course this leader struggled, and his team couldn't help him go around corners fast. 1:30.

1:45.

2:00.

2:10. The crowd was going nuts at this point.

They lapped the field. 2:20 laps. Game over.

In a stage race you're never dead, and you never win till you cross the line.

jdms mvp

uh if u go 1, 1, and then 70th (or even 30th), that is NOT a guaranteed win.

the winner of the omnium i was in got 11th TT, 4th crit and 3rd RR.

aaronmcd

I realize some folks with low FTP can TT, but idk if it's just natural ability to be aero. I stayed in position the whole race, back low, helmet tail down, head low, somehow managed to do 285 watts with a 300w threshold, no TT work, and coming off a hard 4 hour road race. And only did 25 mph. Last year I went OTF solo in a crit from the whistle at 285 and almost 26 mph. Held it for 20 minutes til the break formed and 3 of us were gone. Makes me wonder if I should just TT in IAB and drop my head rather than keep the eyes up enough to keep a helmet tail flat.

Wylde06

With the omniums ive seen here, you have to do all of the events to be eligible for the omnium points/overall. Im sure its different for different races, but this is just what ive seen.

jdms mvp

yes

one thing about the omnium is that in the one i was part of, if someone was lapped and subsequently pulled from the crit.... they were still scored by placing and eligible (i think...) for GC.

in the stage races i've done by time, if u get pulled or lapped, u actually dont factor into the GC at all, no matter how good your RR or TT went.

zigmeister

Replace the 2 in the hundreths position with a 1 on the front of the wattage, and it is what I use...