Just started training with Power? Post your questions/comments here!
#326
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Looking for my right leg muscles.
Posts: 1,202
Bikes: 2000 Cannondale CAAD3 Triple 105/Ultegra
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
check out the wattage forum on google. it has been, and is being, extensively discussed.
#327
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 28,387
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
I am sure this has been debated before, but I will bring it up any way.
NP is a method for smoothing the data. It is supposedly consistent with some physiology that is never brought up. It seems like there should be a better way to smooth the data than just taking powers and doing moving averages. If you assume that all the noise is gaussian then your average power should be the smoothed power for a large data set.
Is anyone with me in thinking NP is a bit arbitrary or am I out on a limb here?
NP is a method for smoothing the data. It is supposedly consistent with some physiology that is never brought up. It seems like there should be a better way to smooth the data than just taking powers and doing moving averages. If you assume that all the noise is gaussian then your average power should be the smoothed power for a large data set.
Is anyone with me in thinking NP is a bit arbitrary or am I out on a limb here?
Last edited by umd; 03-23-09 at 05:45 PM.
#328
Senior Member
Brought up where? It's been discussed on many sites, the Wattage e-mail group, the book "Training and Racing with a Power Meter," and elsewhere. If you haven't seen it, you're not looking. There's no way I can come close to explaining it as well as Andy Coggan has (repeatedly) so I suggest a search on Coggan and normalized power for an explanation.
#329
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Looking for my right leg muscles.
Posts: 1,202
Bikes: 2000 Cannondale CAAD3 Triple 105/Ultegra
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
+1 to asgell. go to google wattage forum and search this:
lies, damned lies, and statistics (everything you need to know about how the NP algorithm treats variability)
lies, damned lies, and statistics (everything you need to know about how the NP algorithm treats variability)
#330
Writin' stuff
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Durango, CO
Posts: 3,784
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 19 Times
in
4 Posts
I quite often end up with NP numbers well over my FTP during technical crits, so for me (without Training Peaks and thus without all the other things that come from/with NP) NP is a completely useless number. For example, my crit saturday night had an NP of 331, over 20w higher than my actual FT.
But it's a great way to make mediocre power numbers look great here on bikeforums. Kind of like setting your powertap not to record zeros - I tried that once and had an average power of 382w for an hour long crit! sweet
But it's a great way to make mediocre power numbers look great here on bikeforums. Kind of like setting your powertap not to record zeros - I tried that once and had an average power of 382w for an hour long crit! sweet
#332
slow up hills
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,931
Bikes: Giant TCR, Redline CX, Ritchey Breakaway, Spec S-works epic
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Hey ladies and gents (probably mostly gents)
I just got a Powertap SL. Black hub, no carbon, I think it's a little old, but I got probably the deal of a lifetime on it (you don't want to know). However -- I can't seem to get it set up. I have the wheel on, and am trying to get a signal to the head unit. My understanding is that I should be able to spin the wheel and if i have the shark fin near it -- I should see something on the HU. Speed, etc. I don't get a signal. Should I assume the batteries in the hub are dead? Is there a good way of checking?
thanks
I just got a Powertap SL. Black hub, no carbon, I think it's a little old, but I got probably the deal of a lifetime on it (you don't want to know). However -- I can't seem to get it set up. I have the wheel on, and am trying to get a signal to the head unit. My understanding is that I should be able to spin the wheel and if i have the shark fin near it -- I should see something on the HU. Speed, etc. I don't get a signal. Should I assume the batteries in the hub are dead? Is there a good way of checking?
thanks
#333
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Killarney, Ireland.
Posts: 648
Bikes: Derosa SuperKing Dura ace, DA wheels, Cannondale Topstone AL, Grx, FFWD 350. Specialized Tarmac SL7 UDi2, Sworks Crux, GRX, Ridley X-night sl, GRX, Specialised Epic Comp Carbon.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I think it is a pro, not an SL, I saw one listed on ebay that went for $299 last week-it also said sl.
Does your CPU have watt's written on the top line?
Does your CPU have watt's written on the top line?
#334
.....
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Long Island
Posts: 4,816
Bikes: 2006 Cannondale CAAD8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Hopefully this is the right spot. I am going to be picking up a powertap. Not sure if I want a 32 hole or a 28 hole. Prety much everyone I see is a 32 hole 3x both sides. This seems to be the standard. Is there a reason for this other than durability? Anything to do with the powermeter? I have heard some places saris prefers certain lacing patterns for accuracy. Any problems with other setups? What would you recomend? Thanks
#335
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Killarney, Ireland.
Posts: 648
Bikes: Derosa SuperKing Dura ace, DA wheels, Cannondale Topstone AL, Grx, FFWD 350. Specialized Tarmac SL7 UDi2, Sworks Crux, GRX, Ridley X-night sl, GRX, Specialised Epic Comp Carbon.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
For the few extra grams of four spokes, I would err on the side of caution. It causes no difference in accuracy, they even make bontrager 16 spoke hubs.
I have had two 32's, I use them for training and C races, if I were going for race wheel ptap, I would go with fewer spokes and a deeper rim, currently I have DT swiss, rr1.1, it looks great and is solid as a rock.
I have had two 32's, I use them for training and C races, if I were going for race wheel ptap, I would go with fewer spokes and a deeper rim, currently I have DT swiss, rr1.1, it looks great and is solid as a rock.
#336
slow up hills
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,931
Bikes: Giant TCR, Redline CX, Ritchey Breakaway, Spec S-works epic
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
don't know if this was a reply to me, but not sure how you would know if it was a pro or SL from my post. I have the 'yellow 1' cpu, and I paid less than what you've listed. When you say watts on the top line -- top line of what? The very top line of the cpu appears to list the number of watts, but the word is below that, on the lcd.
#337
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Killarney, Ireland.
Posts: 648
Bikes: Derosa SuperKing Dura ace, DA wheels, Cannondale Topstone AL, Grx, FFWD 350. Specialized Tarmac SL7 UDi2, Sworks Crux, GRX, Ridley X-night sl, GRX, Specialised Epic Comp Carbon.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
don't know if this was a reply to me, but not sure how you would know if it was a pro or SL from my post. I have the 'yellow 1' cpu, and I paid less than what you've listed. When you say watts on the top line -- top line of what? The very top line of the cpu appears to list the number of watts, but the word is below that, on the lcd.
Okay, so the CPU is in the right mode, you can check to see if the cpu and harness are working by setting the cpu to cyclocomputer mode. Watts should then disappear. If the sensor does not pick up the magnet and display speed, then it is more than likely the harness. If it picks up the magnet, then you know that it is the hub and the first thing to do is change the batteries.
I hope this helps.
#338
slow up hills
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,931
Bikes: Giant TCR, Redline CX, Ritchey Breakaway, Spec S-works epic
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I could be mistaken, but I thought the SL only came with carbon on the hub/shell-either way it does not matter, you got a great deal.
Okay, so the CPU is in the right mode, you can check to see if the cpu and harness are working by setting the cpu to cyclocomputer mode. Watts should then disappear. If the sensor does not pick up the magnet and display speed, then it is more than likely the harness. If it picks up the magnet, then you know that it is the hub and the first thing to do is change the batteries.
I hope this helps.
Okay, so the CPU is in the right mode, you can check to see if the cpu and harness are working by setting the cpu to cyclocomputer mode. Watts should then disappear. If the sensor does not pick up the magnet and display speed, then it is more than likely the harness. If it picks up the magnet, then you know that it is the hub and the first thing to do is change the batteries.
I hope this helps.
I'll check that right away.
#339
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Killarney, Ireland.
Posts: 648
Bikes: Derosa SuperKing Dura ace, DA wheels, Cannondale Topstone AL, Grx, FFWD 350. Specialized Tarmac SL7 UDi2, Sworks Crux, GRX, Ridley X-night sl, GRX, Specialised Epic Comp Carbon.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
PM me if you run into problems getting it up and running, glad to be able to help.
#340
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,317
Bikes: Type of horse.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Question for Low AWC limitation: my chart follows:
5" - 11.89 W/kg
1' - 5.82 W/kg
5' - 4.1 W/kg
FTP - 3.27 W/kg
following the category chart, My 5" and 1' are completely untrained, but my FTP and 5' are deep in cat5 territory. If I want to improve on the AWC component of my curve is it best to develope week by week 30" > 1' > 2' intervals. Or should i mix and match all these together to just see what the hell pops out on the other end? I've got a solid 5 weeks before any races I care about so i have time to play around. Any advice?
5" - 11.89 W/kg
1' - 5.82 W/kg
5' - 4.1 W/kg
FTP - 3.27 W/kg
following the category chart, My 5" and 1' are completely untrained, but my FTP and 5' are deep in cat5 territory. If I want to improve on the AWC component of my curve is it best to develope week by week 30" > 1' > 2' intervals. Or should i mix and match all these together to just see what the hell pops out on the other end? I've got a solid 5 weeks before any races I care about so i have time to play around. Any advice?
#341
Ho-Jahm
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 4,228
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
How do you guys deal with lost data? I went for a really hilly ride on wet roads and lost the powertap after the first hour. I think I'll just multiply the TSS by 2.5 (3 hour ride) which sounds reasonable but what about entering kJ?
#342
carbon is too light
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,260
Bikes: Yes.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked 250 Times
in
160 Posts
If you get dropped, your 5" and 1' power are totally useless anyway. I'd do 2 days of SST / Tempo, and probably throw in a day of vo2 intervals, and a day of 20 minute FTP intervals. That should be PLENTY of training stimulus to get you going. Set it up something like:
Monday: 2x20' FTP intervals
Wednesday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Thursday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Saturday: 3x5' vo2 intervals, 30-60 minutes SST
Do 4 weeks like this, then taper for a week before the race weekend.
Monday: 2x20' FTP intervals
Wednesday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Thursday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Saturday: 3x5' vo2 intervals, 30-60 minutes SST
Do 4 weeks like this, then taper for a week before the race weekend.
#343
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Killarney, Ireland.
Posts: 648
Bikes: Derosa SuperKing Dura ace, DA wheels, Cannondale Topstone AL, Grx, FFWD 350. Specialized Tarmac SL7 UDi2, Sworks Crux, GRX, Ridley X-night sl, GRX, Specialised Epic Comp Carbon.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
If you have good base, I would focus on getting stronger 20'/ftp and 5'vo2, I would do this by doing some LT intervals one day a week and some vo2 intervals one day a week. It is worth getting the Friel training bible, if you are serious about this.
It is not much use having 5" power if you cannot hang with the pack.
It is not much use having 5" power if you cannot hang with the pack.
#344
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,317
Bikes: Type of horse.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
If you have good base, I would focus on getting stronger 20'/ftp and 5'vo2, I would do this by doing some LT intervals one day a week and some vo2 intervals one day a week. It is worth getting the Friel training bible, if you are serious about this.
It is not much use having 5" power if you cannot hang with the pack.
It is not much use having 5" power if you cannot hang with the pack.
#345
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Killarney, Ireland.
Posts: 648
Bikes: Derosa SuperKing Dura ace, DA wheels, Cannondale Topstone AL, Grx, FFWD 350. Specialized Tarmac SL7 UDi2, Sworks Crux, GRX, Ridley X-night sl, GRX, Specialised Epic Comp Carbon.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
If you get dropped, your 5" and 1' power are totally useless anyway. I'd do 2 days of SST / Tempo, and probably throw in a day of vo2 intervals, and a day of 20 minute FTP intervals. That should be PLENTY of training stimulus to get you going. Set it up something like:
Monday: 2x20' FTP intervals
Wednesday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Thursday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Saturday: 3x5' vo2 intervals, 30-60 minutes SST
Do 4 weeks like this, then taper for a week before the race weekend.
Monday: 2x20' FTP intervals
Wednesday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Thursday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Saturday: 3x5' vo2 intervals, 30-60 minutes SST
Do 4 weeks like this, then taper for a week before the race weekend.
#346
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Killarney, Ireland.
Posts: 648
Bikes: Derosa SuperKing Dura ace, DA wheels, Cannondale Topstone AL, Grx, FFWD 350. Specialized Tarmac SL7 UDi2, Sworks Crux, GRX, Ridley X-night sl, GRX, Specialised Epic Comp Carbon.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Remember you are training for the future, not just a month down the road, but one, two, three years etc.
Good luck.
#347
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,317
Bikes: Type of horse.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
If you get dropped, your 5" and 1' power are totally useless anyway. I'd do 2 days of SST / Tempo, and probably throw in a day of vo2 intervals, and a day of 20 minute FTP intervals. That should be PLENTY of training stimulus to get you going. Set it up something like:
Monday: 2x20' FTP intervals
Wednesday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Thursday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Saturday: 3x5' vo2 intervals, 30-60 minutes SST
Do 4 weeks like this, then taper for a week before the race weekend.
Monday: 2x20' FTP intervals
Wednesday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Thursday: SST / Tempo (60-90 minutes)
Saturday: 3x5' vo2 intervals, 30-60 minutes SST
Do 4 weeks like this, then taper for a week before the race weekend.
FTP intervals 100% FTP
SST/Tempo 93% FTP
VO2 intervals 115% FTP
I have ~1hr round trip bike commute every day which I'll keep in tempo zone like 70-90%
#348
Senior Member
#350
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 28,387
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac SL2, Specialized Tarmac SL, Giant TCR Composite, Specialized StumpJumper Expert HT
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
This is where group rides with much faster people are helpful. Basically race intensity but you don't necessarily get dropped and it's all over, you get to keep coming back for more. The intensity is there but there's no structure so you get some of the benefits without having to worry about/deal with training plans, cycles, peaking, etc.