Hida Yanra

***Edited with clickable links for videos***

I've posted a couple videos on Vimeo here:
Praying Landis (high hands)
EDIT: Clicky Link

Low and Flat
EDIT: Clicky Link

I'll get frontal shots up tonight.

About the moving pictures:
Video #1 - First attempt at a 'praying landis' position.
My upper body feels comfortable here, but the relationship between my knees and elbows needs a bit more work.

When I hold up one finger I am aiming for a flatter back,
When I hold up two fingers I am aiming for more of a 'turtle' approach.

My core needs work, and I'm still getting used to the weight distribution, so I do shift around a bit more than I would otherwise.

Video #2 - First attempt at a 'flat & low' position.
My upper body feels like it is pretty high here, but the spacers have all been taken out, and my stem is close to level.

I'm trying to find a good balance between getting my back and shoulders as low as possible while still breathing well and generating power.

About the Bike stuff:
Genevieve the Guru is a stock geometry Guru Cron'alu, probably a 2005, about a 50cm. The stem/cockpit is an Oval concepts 125mm R710 adjustable stem, with an A711 stem cap that holds the extensions and pads.
For reference, my road bike is a Raleigh Team 2010 53cm w/ a 110mm stem at -10deg.

I'm attaching photos of Genevieve in the two positions - to be clear, the bike isn't fully functional (especially brake cables). I forgot to rotate the basebar for the second position, so it points down a bit... my bad, it's fixed now.
For the flat position, I am all the way down (no spacers) and the adjustable stem is set level.

For the angled position there is one spacer there and the adjustable stem is angled up a good bit.


My core needs work, and I'm still getting used to the weight distribution, so I do shift around a bit more than I would otherwise - it'll get better.

I'm open to any input, including being told that my seat is too high (it probably is and I'll change), I should get a carbon bike (I probably won't), and I should redecorate (I'm unlikely to)

Questions that I have from thinking about the way the fit feels & watching the video:
Should my stem length change to a bit shorter, and my seat come back a bit? (if the stem length changes my seat will have to come back as my knees are already right at my elbows)

superdex

only thing I can think of is your seat's too high, but I don't TT, so take that into consideration

ericm979

I dont' know anything about TT position, but I do like the mirror-image logos on the bike. That must unsettle your competition.

Nate552

Am I the only one that can't see the videos?

mattm

The vids won't load for me for some reason..

At this point my only feedback is I need to get a TT bike and get some tips from you!

Hida Yanra

Okay - added links as text - this should help.
Let me know if it is still a problem and I will try youtube or some other site.

kleinboogie

Throw some motion analysis markers on and get the free trial of MaxTraq 2D. If you don't want to use markers you can do all the joint marking manually but it's time consuming. It will give you all the angles, lengths etc. as the video runs or you can just take static measurements on individual frames. I just played with it this weekend and found out that my saddle may be too low in my road position. When I get my TT setup this week I'll do those measurements to. Would be cool to overlay power readings but that's probably too much to ask for a trial.

Superficially I can repeat what I've learned about TT positioning. (1) keep your arm angles at 90 degrees, (2) frontal angle to the wind is more important than your back. btw, you gain 5 watts with the music. GL

chadteck

This is what I was thinking. It looks like you're putting more weight on your arms than necessary. Your saddle height looks fine for your position in the video, but it might be a bit high if you move back.

jrennie

I see more issue with your body position than the TT position. rotated that far forward past the BB will be hard to make sustainable power and require much more core strength just to stabilize you. "Tip it" and ride the nose of the saddle is one thing but you still need support.

Nate552

My .02 - While the Preying Mantis hand position is popular, I would not use it unless you are certain, with field testing, it provides an aerodynamic benefit. If you aren't certain, then I'd go with the classic low and flat hand position. One of the drawbacks to the Mantis is that you can't make as much power with it. Your arms aren't available to "pull" and help create power. They are too busy keeping themselves from sliding off the pads. If you do decide on the Mantis, I'd fab up something that helped support the backs of my elbows. I'd also "Turtle" before I would worry about a flat back. With your head and helmet that high a lot of air is blowing up before it touches your back anyways. With regards to the low position, you were moving around a lot so I'm not sure where your TT position really is, but I'd consider going lower. There's nothing special about your stem being level. What about turtling when you are in the low flat hand position? Your helmet is exposing a good amount of frontal area above your back (see red line). Also, elbow position- this isn't my specialty, but generally, I've found that for comfort you want your arms to act as "pillars" to support your shoulder/head area. To do this most effectively, you want them in a roughly 90 degree angle to your torso, or the line going from your hip to your shoulder. (see yellow lines) If this is your race position, you will fatigue pretty quickly. Or, at least I would. If it's a short TT you can probably deal with it, but a longer one might be tough. How long is that stem?

Hida Yanra

I can feel that my weight is probably 70%/30% front weight... the next change I think I'll make is coming back a bit.
@JRennie: that makes sense - I was doing 2-3hr rides in a less forward position, but I can't imagine doing anything longer than 60' like this.


Wow - I didn't know about that software- thanks, I'll be giving that a try over next weekend when I have multiple hours.
I've been working hard to get 90deg angles on my elbows, and the pictures map out to very close -
One question I have is about the frontal arm/chest gap - do you guys think should it is important to close it up or can it be left open? (I see lots of strong pro guys with an open wind cavity, but they have lots of rules which I don't have to follow)

esammuli

OK, now I understand why your neighbor wanted you to move back. Judging by the location of your hips you're riding close to a 90 degree seat tube angle. try scooting the saddle back a couple of centimeters. You'll also need to move the saddle down a bit as it moves back. I think you may be able to keep the bars in the same position and get a more comfortable arm angle. As it is right now all of your weight is being sustained by your back and core muscles. Moving back a bit you'll bring your arms to closer to a 90 degree angle which will be less effort to support you upper body. The second position (flat) looks especially awkward.

edit: ^^what they said^^ Move it back and then worry about front end height.

Quel

You look really, really far forward. You took a TT geometry bike (78* seat tube angle if my googling was correct), added a forward seatpost and a long saddle, and sit way on the tip of the seat. You could probably use a normal seatpost and be fine. Might require a new stem as you move backwards though to keep the arm weight the same.

As for the differences in hand position...use whatever works for you.

Plus, no one likes it when the talent looks at the camera. Totally ruins the mood. Stop doing that

Hida Yanra

@nate & @esammuli - I've got to knock out some work at the office, but I'm thinking over what you guys are saying... will check back in a few hours.

Alles others? - let's have more input... feel free to discuss/mock as necessary

Nate - is that right angle the angle that you are noting my arms would be at if they were perpendicular to my back? So, is the implication that they should be at that angle, or that my back angle should change to keep my arm angle at right angles to the ground/bike? I want to make sure that I know which you are suggesting.

esammuli

You can also try https://www.kinovea.org/en/

Hida Yanra

@Quel

geometry chart:
50cm frame,
ST: 50cm c-t
TT: 52cm c-c
SA: 76 deg
HTA: 72.5 deg
chainstay: 40.5
BB height: 26.8
Wheelbase: 95.9
Front-center: 57.8
HT Length: 11cm

Quel

Gotcha. I think I saw the same graphic but just looked at the smaller frame seat tube angle. Either way, 76* is in solid TT geometry. Those forward seat posts are made for road geometry, which is 73*.

Building on Nate's image, I put this together. Notice how the two blue bars are the same length? The distance by which your shoulders are too far forward (compared to your elbows) is about the same as how far forward your seat is (due to that seat post). Switching to a normal seat post would probably help you a lot.

Racer Ex 

What Nate said about the arms as pillars. Can't emphasize that enough. In the Flandis it's crucial that your elbow rests support and "lock in" your arms, otherwise you're going to be constantly slipping down which will close up your hip angle and cause overlap between your knees and elbows, which is already a problem I see in both videos. You're going to need to either slide back or get longer extensions.

I'd be inclined to have you drop the nose of the saddle, and raise the whole thing up. Part of why you're on the nose is that the saddle angle is trying to roll your hip backwards and pull you backwards. The other reason I'd raise the saddle is you appear to have a very tight leg/stomach clearance at the top of your pedal stroke and appear to be moving a bit to accommodate this. My rule of thumb is to have around 1/2" clearance at this point, so you're not restricting your breathing and also losing power from having to overextend your glutes and the muscles in the back of your thigh, and to keep your thighs towards a more normal range of motion. FWIW I know some guys go to shorter cranks to alleviate this in really "slammed" positions.

What you want to finish with is a position that "holds" you into place, and one that you can adapt to. I do 3+ hour training rides on my TT rig, the majority in the aerobars. I can do that because I'm not fighting to stay in a position. No matter how powerful or aerodynamically good a position is, if you can't hold it you're going to lose power and create drag over a longer TT from moving around.

If you run the two pics attached back to back with a viewer, you can see how locked in my torso is...even though we move the seat and bars; this all starts at the elbows.

Quel

I really like this video btw. It's from mile 108 of the ironman championship race last weekend, and shows all the top bikers going by in slow motion. Can see their setup and mechanics pretty well. They favor a slightly less aggressive position because of the distance of the race, but it's still low. Just look over it and you can see a lot of common themes in the leg pedaling positions, even though their front ends are all different.

At about 6:05 there is a guy riding the mantis position too, if you are interested in that.

rkwaki

Racer do you have the pic that is opposite to either of those showing you right leg at the same point in the pedal stroke?

botto 

why do people insist on bad techno music when they make bike videos?

spinwax

Just a note: Chris Lieto was fitted by Mat Steinmez of Retul Boulder.

Hida Yanra

oops - that was one of my indoor training playlists - didn't realize that the audio would come through w/ the video... my bad.

Racer Ex 

Unfortunately no.

No idea who this Lieto guy is (some tri geek?) but I helped set up the gal who took second in the 40+ age group...she had a flat during the bike leg that cost her a shot at the win. This was an interesting deal in that you have to bias it more towards comfort and power...but we have her in the "Flandis" and it seems to work really well for her. Again, it started with locking in the elbows.

And on that note...getting a solid elbow/arm position and the arms as pillars really enhances control. You end up steering much more with the shoulders and body.

Quel

Yes. He's the first guy in that video. I think he is considered one of the best riders in tris. 25.5 mph for 112 miles.

Arm position is huge. I'm thinking I'm going to switch my extensions to a bit more of a ski bend instead of the flat s-bend. Just a little too uncomfortable over longer rides as the wrists fatigue. Check out what this guy did to lock his elbow position in that Flandis position:



Yes, those are athletic cups functioning as his elbow rests.