Ygduf

I have known a handful of people who upgraded on finishes and not points. Nothing good has come for any of them. I tell people to ugrade the minute they get their points, but if you don't have your points do not upgrade. n is like 5.

hack

Yikes...I did can awful job and was way too passive in my role of getting you to the line. Watching from your perspective all I could think is "go damnit go!!". I could have avoided the swarm by being and staying ahead of the swarm.

UmneyDurak

What happened to them? To be fair I need only 6 more points. Issue isn't fitness, or bike handling, it's hesitation to jump and just going for it.

It was a good learning experience all around. Thanks for giving it a shot. Maybe next season we can swap and alternate helping each other.

UmneyDurak

I see what you mean. Thx for the feedback.

Ygduf

Oh, they just all suck. If yo uhave 3/4 of the point or whatever you'll probably be fine as it's just a matter of time. There were people who raced for a season or three as 4s and had no points, just pack finishes.

shovelhd

You are very welcome. Good luck and race safe.

aaronmcd

My issue isn't either of those, it's just - why the hell can't I do the right thing at the right time??? It's rare that I finish a crit and I wasn't strong enough. It's common that I finish mid pack and wish I knew exactly where to be and when to jump haha.

mattm

i think you still need to be more aggressive and get to the top 5 wheels in those last few laps, and fight to stay there.

starting the last lap in 20th position, you generally might as well throw in the towel because you've already lost.

also, a true leadout is done from the front, not mid-pack... getting towed around while not moving up isn't really helping anything.

hack

Yeah...first time really trying to help someone out solo and it didn't go well. Kept thinking too much about where to be and when. Didn't want to go too soon and burn out before go time, but ended up being ineffective and getting swarmed.

mattm

i give you credit for even trying - most (like me!) are too selfish to race for someone else in the first place.

fwiw I've never given a leadout, only received.. so i probably shouldn't be giving advice about what to do when leading out.

but the receiver of a leadout needs to be comfortable with yelling at the leader to "go harder", "go all out", etc. ESP wont cut it!

hack

I've only done the reverse myself as well and was very vocal about my needs including telling my teammate to "let's f***ing go already!!". In that instance, my teammate and I were much more comfortable with the situation and ride together a lot. Umney and I didn't have a huge plan other than if I had enough I'd try to get him up toward the front. Watching the video there were plenty of opportunities to move up more and move harder as I had plenty of gas left in the tank (probably not good to come around the rider you're leading out). It was a learning experience and pretty fun, but could have much better...well, I guess it was really a total failure.

spectastic

the highlights

UmneyDurak

I just get complacent and hesitant towards the end. Not sure how to fix it. At the beginning I am more aggressive, and when not on the bike I visualize and think about how I can be more aggressive. Then on those last few laps I just forget or something.

It was a good learning experience for both of us. With the video it is more concrete. Thanks for trying.

shovelhd

It can be a self-preservation thing. You don't want to waste your energy for the sprint by fighting for position. The thing is, it's like going off the back. You gotta fight to stay in the game to have a chance to win. You're better off being 3rd wheel with 3/4 of your sprint than 12th wheel with all of it, at least under most conditions.

carpediemracing 

I'm a little distracted with Junior running around with no diaper (potty training) but my takes:
Cat 4 - were those guys sitting up lapped? Were they in a break? I didn't realize it was the end of the Cat 4 race until the guy that got third sat up. Then I scrolled back and realized that, yes, there's a finish line set up there. If I hadn't known that guy got 3rd I probably would have missed it.

My take on the finish is that it's close enough to that last turn, and you're not passing enough riders, that you need to be top 3 going into that last turn. It helps that in the 4s there weren't that many good cornerers. This means sacrificing some sprint to get into position for that last turn.

Cat 3-4s: In this the importance of positioning for the last turn becomes pretty obvious. In that first race I thought, "Well, I could have gotten a result". In the 3-4 race I thought, "Well, I'd have sat up if I wasn't in the money." I'd have used everything to be in the front 3 into that last turn.

With hack the best would have been for him to shelter, save himself, eventually move to one side (right side?), then launch himself at the beginning of the straight before the last turn. I'd envision that he comes out of the second last turn, with you on your wheel, and regardless of other riders' tactics, he goes up the side 1000% and sprints for the last turn. It would be all out, out of the saddle sprinting 1000% like there was a $5000 prime for getting to the last corner first. The idea would be to gap off other riders, and at the absolute minimum make it a strung out line with gaps. This would reduce the number of racers you're sprinting against to, say, 3 or 4.

You won't knock out the best sprinters out of the game but you'll reduce the pool a lot, maybe to 1 or 2. Hopefully the guys that latch onto the train either blow themselves up or jumped in line because they don't feel confident of their sprint. Sprinters tend to wait, being confident in their ability to move up later.

Okay I have to go.

hack

Thanks CDR. Good learning experience.

spectastic

I wait too much

carpediemracing 

I think your comments are really pertinent. I've felt both ways and I've been in races where my teammates and I did everything wrong.

As far as how to approach the sprint, I realized a long time ago that I had a hard time remembering details of sprints. Therefore I'd review the sprint (meaning the last lap or last minute or three) mentally as soon as I finished the race, trying to remember details and make them a bit more permanent. It's a huge Zen like thing, I just go with the flow, what happens happens, and suddenly the race is over.

With video I can remember specific thoughts I had ("early move left side, gotta keep patient"), specific goals I made for myself ("get around that guy NOW"), and even see moves I don't remember making (like when I slotted between two guys just before the last corner of a race, I totally didn't remember doing that).

For me, personally, I find that marking a particular rider becomes a bit distracting for me. Instead of going with moves that look promising (like a surge up the side where I could jump right in if I went NOW) I pause and wait for my mark to go. What ends up happening is that even if my mark gets into really good position I'm one position behind that. If he's a good sprinter, meaning he can pass a bunch of people in the sprint, being one rider back from him might put me out of the running. If he's not a sprinter, if he's moving up because he can't sprint, then that would be better, but typically those riders are so strong that they can sit in the wind enough that I can't even hang on their wheels even drafting them. Plus there are very few non-sprinters that are good at pack maneuvering in the critical 1000m -> 200m to go area. It's not that they don't know, it's that the pack maneuvering that I prefer tends to require high peak power. I wait and wait and then jet forward into a slot, wait, wait, jet, etc.

Video is really good. It keeps a racer honest. It's terrible but I watch a video and I think I was 10 back and I count and I was 25 back. Or I finish the race and think, oh, maybe I got 10th but realistically it was like 15th-20th, based on where I started the sprint and the fact that I never jumped hard, and then I learn after that I was 4th in the race. It's not that I sprinted well, it's that the guys up front melted in the wind. I was so focused on looking for a way to get around the guys in front of me that I didn't realize they were winning the race.

The important thing is that you tried, you observed, and you learned. Now you have more ideas, things to try out, and you can put some of that into effect the next time you race. You can even practice some of that on group rides if you ride with those that you race with.

JohnKScott

I know it was several days ago now. But would you mind a few bullet points if you still have them available at at the fore of you mind? Now that I watched the video I'd be interested watching again with some thoughts in mind. I know bullet point number 1. Don't crash . Not a play by play. Just a few general points that you noticed.

shovelhd

Sure. I have to attend a couple of meetings but I should have time later.

JohnKScott

Thank you kind sir. Like I said, don't kill yourself over it.

spectastic

I think on a good day, I could have done better. today I pretty much left it all on the line. would like to know what more I could have done to yield a better result, like maybe finding shelter in the sprint.

btw I kind of misjudged the finishline. I thought it was at the top of the hill, but that was the 200m, so I guess that explains why I rode into the wind like a dumbass

carpediemracing 

Couple questions -

1. When you moved up was the wind from the left, right, or dead on?
2. Same question regarding the sprint.

Your move up seemed pretty relaxed and surprisingly unobstructed, especially considering how close it was to the finish.

spectastic

not sure. don't know if there was any wind. towards the end though, I noticed the right side had a lot more room, and we were getting pushed out on the left, so there might have been a small wind from the right side.

I moved up using the centerline. I think it worked because most people didn't want to ride on the centerline out of fear the might get DQ'd. I did it because there was no other way of moving up.

waterrockets 

I think you should have found your way out of the wind sooner after moving up. If there was any sort of chase going on, then you were working too hard up there in the wind, too close to the finish.

In the sprint, you missed two Voodoo wheels: they guy you never came around, and the guy who came through on your left. If you're not drafting a guy who's in front of you in a sprint, you'd better be passing him. Once that isn't happening any more, you should find a wheel and figure out another plan.

The voodoo guy on the right who you never quite got around, I'd say you should have found his wheel (well outside the "hold your line" rule) and used the draft to slingshot around him.