Daily Commute

If it's true, it's suspicious that the testing bodies won't turn over raw test data or permit independent testing of the samples. Scientific testing is not perfect, and you need the raw data and the ability to repeat a test to make sure it is accurate. I think it's fair to demand accountability of the testers, as well as the tested.

[rant]While I can't say anything about the other tests, I distrust the International Olymipic Committee. Its long-time leader (until very recently), Juan Antonio Samaranch, was an unrepentant WWII fascist. The fascist is still the IOC's "honorary president for life." No organization that honors Nazis is worthy of trust.[/rant]

My rant over, I hope the appeals process makes the raw data public and permits Hamilton to have independent labs test whatever is left of the samples. Then, it will be put up or shut up time for him (as well as for the testers). Until that happens, we are left with a bunch of unproven accusations on both sides. But at least Hamilton doesn't associate with and honor Nazis. You can't say that about some of his accusers.

Edit: This is the 116-page report of the World Anti-Doping Agency. It was in an article linked by don d. Like Hamilton, the WADA might be lying, but the report is probably a must-read for anyone who wants to pontificate about the controversy.

Maj.Taylor

For those of us who believe Tyler...

https://www.believetyler.org/

meb

Tyler is not facing action by the IOC, IOC considered the Olympic matter closed (although silver medalling Russia and Australia filed appeals so the IOC matter may be reopened if the Russian-Australian appeal gets anywhere. Unless the IOC evidence is being used against Tyler, he lacks standing to compel the IOC to show what evidence they have. Since the IOC test results are not being used against him, they have s no need for Tylers attorneys and experts to review the data looking for errors.

With no action pending, IOC is probably reluctant to divulge the details of their test because: 1) disclosing specifics might help cheaters circumvent the test; and/or 2) if disclosure and review of the test data and procedures show the validity is weak, the effect of scaring cheaters into compliance would be lost.

If UCI is using the IOC results as evidence in their action against Tyler, the discover of the Athens test would be compelled.

UCI will be compelled to disclose their evidence to Tyler's legal-scientific team unless they elect to drop the matter.

pjbaz

What a dick thing to say.

Regardless of whether or not someone shares your views of this particular situation, or any for that matter, hoping they get hit by a car is completely off base. Cycling is SUPPOSED to be what this board is about- riding, meeting friends that share the love of the bike, etc.- not wishing harm on others because they disagree with you.

America- where many of us live, including, I'm assuming, you Smoothie104- is a country based on the fundamental belief that people can disagree and that's o.k. In fact, one of the tenets of the Constitution supports this. The fact that two people can disagree, but will fight (to the death in some instances) to defend the right of their opponent to disagree with them is what makes this country great.

I suggest you learn to relax. If a message board makes you so angry you wish harm on someone, I'm assuming you've never met, you need to seek professional help.

I'm also assuming you've never been hit by a car...if you had I hardly think you would wish that kind of thing on others.

PJBAZ

Daily Commute

I hope you're right. This back and forth is getting tiresome. Put the raw data on the table. Make the lab explain detail-by-detail how it did the test. Let Hamilton have an independent lab do a test. Then the wrong side (UCI or Hamilton) should apologize and shut up.

lotek 

They sure didn't read as sarcasm, not between Don.d and Smoothie104

Marty

Devil

I highly doubt that those two are going to wish each other death over a disagreement about Tyler Hamilton.

poululla

Smoothie104, I always enjoyed reading your posts, but after your remark about getting hit by a car....you are now on my ignore list. That kind of statement, even when made in jest does not go of well.

Smoothie104

I never said I wished he were dead, just hit by a car.....

how about I hope he rides into a parked car and falls over and skins his knee.... better?

MacMan

Blimey! When I drive to work, I usually wish just about everyone on the road would die!

Smoothie has more cycling knowledge and great stories than just about everyone on this board put together. Oh well ...

Smoothie104

Thanks Macman!

Hitchy

You're telling smoothie to chill**********.......geez...in the context of a discussion that was getting 'heated', I thought smoothies reply 'I hope you get hit by a car', actually provided some levity to the situation......I doubt anyone here took it seriously...& even if they did...so what?...I wish for a million bucks everyday
doesn't mean its gunna happen!....like macman, i pass a fatwa on every motorist that gives me a hard time, everyday, on my commute...doesn't mean crap son.......Keep up the good work Smoothie....& for you PJBAZ, I wish some medication, so you can get a sense of humour & stop worrying about things like this, before you burst a blood vessel in your head!

Hitchy

don d.

Wow, ya go away for a day and the PM's are ricocheting like bullets in a Quickdraw McGraw cartoon.

Hey, I don't take Smoothie seriously. After all, being a smoothie is bad enough, you certainly can't get serious about one.

Now if he could learn how to put together a creative insult instead of wishing harm to people who disagree with him....take the advice smoothie and use your ignore list.

pjbaz

I have a sense of humor.

Although, as someone who HAS been hit by a car I can definitely say I wouldn't wish it on anyone. And my accident was minor compared to many others on this board.

I don't worry about things like this either, I actually was enjoying the back and forth until the post degenerated into attack after attack...even if the author was joking. The Internet, and the written word for that matter, take alot of the ability to "read" what people are actually saying through body language, etc. away.

Regards,
PJ

pjbaz

Now that reads as a witty jab.

PJ

poululla

Whether we agree with Smoothie104's remarks, or not, the remarks made by him go against forums guidelines (not to mention common decency). Being a member on this forum means that you have accepted these guidelines. Being a regular poster as Smoothie104 is, with good insight into the world of cycling, does not excuse him, nor does it give him the right to make a personal attack on another member.
I call for the the site moderators to put a 2 week ban on posts by Smoothie104. Behaviour and remarks like his ruins threads. Put him in the sin bin where hopefully he would think before making remarks as he has made in this thread.

Grasschopper

Not sure if it is possible to get this thread back on topic but the latest news on this is that Tyler has been fired from Phonak with Phonak having done their own investigation and with the team trying to disprove the testing. Phonak's OWN pannel of "experts" couldn't disproove the tests.

lotek 

Grasschopper, thanks for the retracking of the thread.
I'm going to break precedent here and let ya'll know how I have
handled this situation.
1)I sent PM to Smoothie104 thats what we Mods do, we take banning
quite seriously.
2) Don.d seems to be ok with it so I am electing to let things settle out.
3) The mods (all of them) are watching this thread, consider yourselves warned.

Now, back to the thread. Does this make any difference now that tyler has
been sacked?
the way I see it, game set match, end of career regardless of tylers accusations/assumptions about the testing procedures.

Marty

Smoothie104

I wonder if he will now change his story, in order to take some folks down with him, or if he will stay the course and hope to get picked up by some one else one day.

Daily Commute

Hamilton will now lose at least part of one season, but if he wins his appeal, he can salvage the next season and some of his reputation. Could he join another team this year if the appeal vindicates him? I don't know.

lotek 

Not sure what Tyler is going to do, seems that this really sinks
any doubt that people might have. Even if Phonak dropped him purely
to get a pro tour bid, it will always look as if they don't support his
proclaimed innocence.

Marty

...jeff

from www.tylerhamilton.com

NEWS FLASH
November 30, 2004

As of November 25, 2004 I am no longer a member of the Phonak Professional Cycling Team based in Switzerland.

After many discussions with team management, we concluded together, that it would not be possible for the team to continue at the level we hoped with my name on the roster. Specifically, it would be impossible for Phonak to be accepted into the UCI Pro Tour with one of its riders facing charges of using prohibited performance enhancing methods.

We had hoped my facing the judicial process alone, apart from the team would pave the way for Phonak being included in the Pro Tour. Knowing that the Phonak cycling team has done everything it could to meet the demands required by the UCI to be accepted into the Pro Tour, we were very disappointed to learn today, that the team would not be included after all.

I joined the Phonak Cycling Team in 2004 with high hopes of building one of the best teams in cycling. Together, we accomplished a number of goals, namely being invited to the Tour de France in July.

While at Phonak, I played a large role in bringing in various sponsors, riders and staff. It is out of loyalty to them and the remaining riders and staff that I accepted the premature termination of my contract which was due to expire at the end of the 2005 season.

By stepping aside, I had hoped to see the Phonak Team accepted into the Pro Tour. I also hoped to see the team carry out the long-term plans we put in place last January. While I was saddened to have to part company with a group of people I care for so deeply, it seemed this was the only way to keep the team operating and able to compete at the highest level of the sport of cycling.

It is my hope they will still be able to accomplish this goal.

I am very sad the challenges I face personally have had such a wide ranging impact on so many. This ordeal now affects the Phonak riders, staff, sponsors and their families. On a personal level, and on behalf of everyone involved, I am more committed than ever to getting to the bottom of all this.

I want to express my complete and overwhelming appreciation to Andy Rihs and the team management of Phonak for standing beside me as long as they could. Their support has been unprecedented and I am very grateful for everything they have done for me to date.

This said, I am looking forward to the judicial process in my case and having the opportunity to prove my innocence. It is my sincere hope that once I am exonerated I can rejoin the professional peloton and the sport I love.

Tyler Hamilton

Guest

So he stepped aside and wasn't fired?

Koffee

PaulBravey

Each story I've read puts a different slant on it. Tyler's statement implies he stood aside for the good of the team, another version I read was far more cynical and implied that Phonak dropped him like a hot potato when they realised that the UCI weren't going to give them a PT license if he was still on the team.

Hitchy

it hasn't made any difference, the UCI hasn't included Phonak in the pro tour anyway. I suspect it's more about the number of indescretions levelled at Phonak of late, rather than Tyler per se

Hitchy