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Importance of coaching?

Old 05-28-12, 11:36 AM
  #26  
gsteinb
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It just sounds like you're about to drop a pyramid scheme on us. If you're old school coaching most likely seems silly, or certainly overly complicated in its modern form.

Teams get the stuff you're talking about, but not until higher levels. The idea of some guy playing uncle to a cat 5 team is kind of comical. Even if they can understand the nuances of the team aspects of the sport they certainly do not possess the fitness or even need to execute it.
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Old 05-28-12, 12:55 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by JeffOYB View Post
What about the role for a godfather type? ...Someone who is just around the periphery observing the overall tone -- and the particulars -- at races. Checking in on the various teammates, as you say, who are into that. Seems handy. Like the one coach has a metabolic monitoring focus. Seems like he might still be part of a bigger picture that a godfather type could keep the pulse of.
Our team has a board of directors responsible for overall guidance. The LBS owner and team captain is a 40+ Cat1 with experience in Europe, and he sets the (Godfather) tone. But the Chairman of the Board is another experienced masters racer, so that the chairman is independent of the LBS sponsor.

Then, at the risk of bursting it all at the seams (what it would feel like anyway) what about development? Recruiting, retainiing, building juniors -- whew! Organizational strength needs a guiding hand, too. Like, I remember getting awfully self-centered in my prime. Now, I tried to be a good teammate, but even a winning group focus can be myopic in terms of overall team health (and longevity). Basically, and maybe this is another topic, making sure teammates rotate through in organizational support roles seems good -- volunteering at events -- not trying to race everything the club puts on. Non-race task delegation. I suppose the club/team president might do this more than the coach.

Basically, it seems like a team of all/only racers is at risk in these ways. Although I suppose people can deal with infrastructure AND race.
We have a few juniors on our team - youngest is 15 and he just won the state Cat4 crit championship. 17yo won juniors and does well in Cat2. I expect to see him in the pro ranks one day. There is a junior development team that is loosely affiliated with our shop/team, and the 17yo is part of that. It is a program that not only develops the junior's cycling, but growth as a person as well. Guy running it is terrific, and often rides alongside the juniors coaching them.

Organizationally, we have the board, and they solicit volunteers in different areas. For instance, I helped with our communication platform (Facebook centric) and scheduling. Everyone pitches in to set up the tents and such for races. So far, it is a very supportive and collaborative environment.
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Old 05-28-12, 08:53 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by JeffOYB View Post
All hail Mike Walden.) They didn't cost much, but were priceless (I don't even recall dues being anything more than negligible). And we certainly mopped up thanks to them. The teams without a coach definitely floundered significantly in various ways despite otherwise being similar or superior to us. We also rode in very bland terrain but that never held us back (we did enjoy low traffic...altho the main group in Detroit had a whole lotta bad to contend with).
I lucked out and have been the beneficiary of that legacy-- I got a lot of help from Roger Young out here on the track, and went from being a terminal cat 3 to making the scratch race final at elite nats. I actually grew up in the Detroit area when things were really rolling, but didn't know how to get into bike racing or have the money for it.
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Old 05-28-12, 09:08 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by JeffOYB View Post
Maybe that's a change from the olden days. It didn't used to cost much, if anything, more to get quality help for a team from someone who could offer more objective input. It seems pretty good to have a nonracer doing the guiding.
It still doesn't-- even at the individual coaching level, the ones who will help you race better in addition to the training plans don't cost much, if anything, more than the ones who just do a lot of personalized training planning. At least a few of the clubs around here have coaches who are members and provide a good amount of coaching support for the team, often in the form of clinics for various aspects of training and racing. Teams around here also will often hire a coach for some specified amount of time-- e.g. 8 weeks for 20 team members or something.
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Old 05-29-12, 07:00 AM
  #30  
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Interesting. I also raced in the 80's on a Team Miyata, and if "Frankie" is the Frankie I'm thinking about, I raced on his team before he turned pro.

I think the main differences between then and now are technology and communication. It seems like half the Cat5 fields today have power meters. You can get all you need to know about training and racing over the Internet. The trick is learning how to use the tools and information to your best ability, and in my opinion, that takes practice, success, and failure. You need all three. You need to know what you've got, how to use it, and when to use it. Can a coach help you figure this out? A good one can. Do you need one to figure it out? No way. You have to be willing to take risks. Unless you are a pure sprinter or a beast that can ride away from the field solo, races don't always go by the plan.
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Old 05-29-12, 09:46 AM
  #31  
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So that would be the Wolverines, right? What did you think of Walden method?

Even if you didn't like it, I'd say there is room for a variety of methods -- let them all go head to head. And, sure, an uncoached team could also have plenty of capability. I certainly can see that a coached team might not work for a lot of local riders (the coach might be bad, or "bad" for those riders) and they'd search out another path.

I agree that technology and communication (Internet, specifically) are huge changes. It also seems like this personal coaching thing is recent and rather new. It pretty much didn't exist in the 80's. (A team coach could certainly spend personal time, though, helping custom hone a plan to help a rider find form and skill.)

I agree about races not really being controllable all the time, esp by a coach on the sidelines (ha...better regional teams these days can be seen with the ear-wires!).

Still, it seems like riders are so intense and diverse/different that if you had a squad of 20 of them -- whew! -- how to keep the cats herded and not scratching? Even when there's a fairly clear upper pecking order, a star and a couple lieutenants, that doesn't seem like enough order for best results for everyone. There can be quiet resentment and less productive attitudes even when everyone seems to be getting along. There seems to be something good when even the stars submit to some higher structure. But, of course, the whole idea that's been mentioned of "this is all voluntary" needs respecting as well.

I just know of a new team of a couple dozen hard chargers, 75% of them fairly new. They have it all. Personal trainers and all the latest tech. Far more than our old teams had. But they don't have a coach. And they really don't seem to know that much. And they don't want a coach, from what I can tell. They are confident in their skills and resources. And it's true that maybe a coach isn't needed. But to me it seems like they might be missing out. Maybe they could try one just to see sometime. It's the only thing they lack. Just the whole idea of a team of all athletes, everyone striving in their own ways. Even if they all get along fine... I dunno -- a coach seems like a special kind of person, with different skills and thinking and vision than an athlete.

Their situation reminds me of a young champ I know -- Andy Liebner, in XC ski racing / biathlon -- he rocked the US, got major college/junior titles, then got a temporary knee injury -- quickly recovered, but got dropped anyway from his high-hopes UST program -- they didn't want to risk resources on someone recovering. So he went to Europe on his own to prove that he was ready for the next level despite what the bosses said. No one told him that this was a good idea. But he couldn't be stopped. He was pure passion and fire. He got into so much trouble over there! He couldn't deal with the technicalities of bureaucracies. He was almost jailed a few times. He needed a coach! He had a personal trainer. He needed grooming and to be put on starting lines and pointed to the finish and allowed to do his thing. He was smart for racing and training. Very observant. He learned a huge amount about performance. But he's not a diplomat. He needed guiding. His dramatic experiences make for good stories, though! : ) (He just came out with a memoir, "Wild Shot.") Anyway, now picture 20 of these guys in a group, all friendly ... but with no group overseer... Is technology and the Web enough to optimize their experience?

Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
Interesting. I also raced in the 80's on a Team Miyata, and if "Frankie" is the Frankie I'm thinking about, I raced on his team before he turned pro.

I think the main differences between then and now are technology and communication. It seems like half the Cat5 fields today have power meters. You can get all you need to know about training and racing over the Internet. The trick is learning how to use the tools and information to your best ability, and in my opinion, that takes practice, success, and failure. You need all three. You need to know what you've got, how to use it, and when to use it. Can a coach help you figure this out? A good one can. Do you need one to figure it out? No way. You have to be willing to take risks. Unless you are a pure sprinter or a beast that can ride away from the field solo, races don't always go by the plan.
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Old 05-29-12, 10:04 AM
  #32  
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I must have the wrong Frankie. My mistake.

Are you a coach? You're starting to sound a little bit too much like a shill.
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Old 05-29-12, 10:10 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
I must have the wrong Frankie. My mistake.

Are you a coach? You're starting to sound a little bit too much like a shill.
you think? of his last 50 posts, 35 were before this year, with two more between then and the start of this thread
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Old 05-29-12, 10:14 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
I must have the wrong Frankie. My mistake.

Are you a coach? You're starting to sound a little bit too much like a shill.
Yeah, I meant Frankie Andreau.

No, I'm no coach and not even in racing anymore. But I do run into it and ride with racers and notice things and wonder about the changes since when I did race. (Hence all my posts on just that. That is, I feel really lucky to have been coached and wonder what's up when I see a gungho team not trying to get a coach...)

It seems odd that twice now the "sales" angle has popped up. Apologies if some kind of sales offer seemed immanent. My aim is just clear writing and exploring of the ideas, that's all. Offhand, I don't think anyone could point to anything I've posted that would lead someone to think I had a secret agenda or was going to "spring" something. I'd assert my stuff has all been pretty tightly on topic.

I do believe in quality outdoor culture and like exploring the ways of getting there. (And I am in the outdoor activity media biz.)
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Old 05-29-12, 02:32 PM
  #35  
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Just wanted to add few more opinions based on my recent personal experience.

1. Only seek coach if you are 100% committed and have the time and flexibility to train 5-6 days per week because otherwise you will be wasting your money and coach's time.

2. Be ready to train alone especially if you are enjoying group rides because you may be doing intervals on Saturday morning in stead.

3. Cycling training will become a part/full time job so forget other hobbies/activities otherwise you are cheating your training.

For the past 12 months I have been working with wonderful coach that help me with my training. Fitness gains from training with coach were indisputable based on my power data unfortunately my pathetic racing skills delivered only marginal race results. My season is officially over and I will not seek help of coach for next season because I do have life outside of cycling including a full time job, family with kids and other hobbies and my training was taking over.

So unless you are a pro getting paid to cycle, selfish egomaniac, unemployed or have nothing else going on in your life, be prepared to lose the enjoyment cycling is when is done the fun way because at least for me, going out to do whatever was on my training schedule when the weather is bad or I dont feel like training will take away the enjoyment from cycling I had when riding for fun.

I'm not giving up on cycling or bike racing but for now I have other priorities. I know I wont be winning races without hard training so lets be it. I will still race from time to time but just for fun without the added stress or worries why my power was few watts lower etc. On the other hand I will have more time for my kids and other hobbies and will have fun riding my bike again.

J.
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Old 05-29-12, 05:48 PM
  #36  
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If you're just starting out and getting more serious about biking, a coach is invaluable. This is my first year training for any sport and there's a huge difference between doing something alone and doing it using the knowledge and tools of someone with 20+ years of experience who has coached guys who made it to high levels in their sport.

And you get to meet a lot of new people to train / ride with.
For me the social / networking aspect is worth it.

But it is expensive. If you have limited money, a power meter is probably the best possible training investment you can make. You're infinitely better off with a 1000$ bike and a power meter than a 3000$ bike and no power meter, and I think that you'd also be way better off with 2000$ worth of coaching over 2000$ worth of bike upgrades.
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Old 05-30-12, 08:50 AM
  #37  
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There's plenty of "how to train" coaching out there.

I still see a big gap missing "how to race" coaching. IMO the only and I mean only way to effectively coach a rider on "how to race" is to be there, in person, in the same race if possible.

Example: I know a rider who signed up with a great coach, remotely. Did the workouts, got super fit. Won a windy road race, solo. Yet he still can't get around a crit corner to save his life. Still spends most of the race sitting 3 feet out beside the group, in the wind. Still does the wrong kind of efforts at the wrong times for the wrong reasons. The remote coach can't see these mistakes, he's not in the race. A smart teammie could offer tips, if he had one.

Especially in the lower cats, I see it all the time - strong riders who don't get the results they deserve because of racing mistakes.

Last edited by Creakyknees; 05-30-12 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 05-30-12, 09:06 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
A long time ago I decided that I wouldn't offer advice openly, I'd only offer it if someone asks. This was because a racer giving advice unsolicited can be construed as obnoxious. I'm not talking safety stuff, I'm talking race tactics.
The more I read your posts, the more I want our paths to cross. If or when that does happen, rest assured that I will ask you to offer any advice you feel compelled to offer.
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Old 05-30-12, 09:09 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
Especially in the lower cats, I see it all the time - strong riders who don't get the results they deserve because of racing mistakes.
They get the results they deserve.
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Old 05-30-12, 09:26 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
There's plenty of "how to train" coaching out there.

I still see a big gap missing "how to race" coaching. IMO the only and I mean only way to effectively coach a rider on "how to race" is to be there, in person, in the same race if possible.

Example: I know a rider who signed up with a great coach, remotely. Did the workouts, got super fit. Won a windy road race, solo. Yet he still can't get around a crit corner to save his life. Still spends most of the race sitting 3 feet out beside the group, in the wind. Still does the wrong kind of efforts at the wrong times for the wrong reasons. The remote coach can't see these mistakes, he's not in the race. A smart teammie could offer tips, if he had one.

Especially in the lower cats, I see it all the time - strong riders who don't get the results they deserve because of racing mistakes.
I will openly admit this is part of my problem in crits. I think I race a bit better in road races, saving energy, attacking at the right moment, getting prepped for the sprint, etc. But jeez, in crits, I'm a disaster. Always stuck in the wind, always in the wrong place at the wrong time, timid on turns, etc.
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Old 05-30-12, 09:45 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
There's plenty of "how to train" coaching out there.

I still see a big gap missing "how to race" coaching. IMO the only and I mean only way to effectively coach a rider on "how to race" is to be there, in person, in the same race if possible.

Example: I know a rider who signed up with a great coach, remotely. Did the workouts, got super fit. Won a windy road race, solo. Yet he still can't get around a crit corner to save his life. Still spends most of the race sitting 3 feet out beside the group, in the wind. Still does the wrong kind of efforts at the wrong times for the wrong reasons. The remote coach can't see these mistakes, he's not in the race. A smart teammie could offer tips, if he had one.

Especially in the lower cats, I see it all the time - strong riders who don't get the results they deserve because of racing mistakes.
Horse to water.

I've been in more than one "leader" situation where tactics were discussed numerous times in advance of an event and there would still be one guy who would not stick to the plan. Inevitably their response to "why did you do that?" would start with "I thought..."

Great interview with Nelson Vails. The jist from him was he didn't think. He rode to the plan.

The reason you see the "DS/Coach" model on junior teams and not on most other teams until the pro ranks is that juniors have to listen to adults or you take their toys away. The pros get fired. The rest of the folks have no real obligation to listen, and often have a bunch of ego and self interest tied up in their racing. Read back through this thread and all the "coaches" mentioned were either working with juniors or 1/2 teams.

Best coach riding alongside someone can't always make some people comfortable rubbing elbows in a crit, or help some people turn off their brain. We've all seen the person who repeats the same mistakes in racing or in life. Some people you just can't reach.

That said you can impart a lot without riding next to folks. It requires a bit of inventiveness at times, and more so a willingness and interest from the racer.

And the bigger part of this is that it's far rarer to find people who have both a Big Book of Tactics (BBoT) and the teaching skills to impart that wisdom than it is to find people who know how to train. There are a whole bunch of coaches who haven't hardly won a race, a whole bunch who have won a few, but not many that have won a lot...it's pretty much a mirror of the cycling population as a whole. Then you take that small group and divide it into people who have teaching skills and those that don't. Shrinks it down further.

It's not hard to get a picture of this even at the pro ranks...certain DS's seem to fail with great regularity.

There was a great vignette in "Ball Four" about a hitting coach who was a terror at the plate back in the day. He couldn't articulate much of anything because he was just a natural talent. After watching guys mess up he would take the bat from them, whack one over the fence, then turn around and say "See? That's how you do it". Being a great racer doesn't make you a great teacher.

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Old 05-30-12, 10:07 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
There's plenty of "how to train" coaching out there.

I still see a big gap missing "how to race" coaching. IMO the only and I mean only way to effectively coach a rider on "how to race" is to be there, in person, in the same race if possible.

Example: I know a rider who signed up with a great coach, remotely. Did the workouts, got super fit. Won a windy road race, solo. Yet he still can't get around a crit corner to save his life. Still spends most of the race sitting 3 feet out beside the group, in the wind. Still does the wrong kind of efforts at the wrong times for the wrong reasons. The remote coach can't see these mistakes, he's not in the race. A smart teammie could offer tips, if he had one.

Especially in the lower cats, I see it all the time - strong riders who don't get the results they deserve because of racing mistakes.
Hey now...don't get personal.

One thing I've never divulged to the team or anyone until recently, that rider most likely has a mild case of Multiple Sclerosis and half the time doesn't know if his bike is still under him or not due to phantom sensory issues. Hence the problems with corners and screaming downhills. Take nice straight flats where the eyes can easily override what the brain is telling, and go-fast-go. Started in 2001. Never known what its like not to be dizzy since then.

Try this: drink 2-3 glasses of wine and sign up for a crit. See how well the corners go

One other tell-tale: next time your behind the rider in question, notice the size of right leg vs. left. Most of the watts comes out of left leg. Right leg (and arm) don't work so well due to nuero damage in brain or spine, we're not sure yet. GLoven noticed it first three years ago. A few others have asked too. Lets just hope a wheelchair won't have to be employed anytime soon.

Last edited by Doggus; 05-30-12 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 05-30-12, 11:52 AM
  #43  
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Just as not everyone is capable of teaching, not everyone is able to be taught. If you are going to have a coach, you need to be able and willing to listen to what is said, and to apply it. At the same time, I don't think you can just blindly do what you are told, because you will always have insights not available to your coach. It isn't all in the data files. There needs to be effective communication - a good dialog. An athlete should be willing and able to challenge assignments and approaches, but then of course follow assignments as precisely as possible. Not everyone does that! And, if you don't enjoy the structure, if you aren't willing to ride alone instead of doing the group ride, etc. etc. then, well... it isn't just a question of whether you should have a coach, it's a question of your approach to the sport. If you want to do your best, you are going to have the structure, and sacrifice some things you enjoy, whether you have a coach or not. Doing so makes some folks happy - others not so much.

Do you have to ride/race together all the time? That would certainly be ideal, especially when it comes to things like cornering, but I don't consider it mandatory so long as you communicate well. I'm capable of knowing when I mess up, and how I messed up. Ditto for when I get it right. I try to not repeat mistakes, but I often do, because we all have tendencies, strengths and weaknesses. Your coach obviously needs to know those.

I hired a coach right when I decided to start racing, about 18 months ago, after having only been riding for about a year. She helped me make rapid progress in fitness, and also in basic handling skills. I've come a long way. But now I need to learn how to win Masters races, and so I'm working with someone (Ex) who knows exactly that, and also how to teach that. I'm now focused on the specific skills and power profile that will win races, rather than on more generalized development. I'm also practicing new cornering techniques and using new positioning. I bought a TT bike and am building strength in the TT position, which will carry over to breakaways in crit's and RR's. Two very different coaching experiences. Both, for me, invaluable. I would have been floundering on my own, and would not have progressed nearly as quickly. When it comes to investing in the sport: Coaching > Power Meter > Other Stuff
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Old 05-30-12, 12:47 PM
  #44  
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i agree on the distinction between training/fitness coaching and racing coaching...both are valuable, but the racing coaching is completely different. it takes a minimum amount of fitness to be able to employ a strategy in a race, and having finally achieved that fitness this year, and realizing my decisions about positioning and effort have a huge effect on my place at the line, I am excited to learn even more.
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Old 05-30-12, 12:52 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Doggus View Post
Hey now...don't get personal..
lolz... BUSTED!!!! sorry! ... was wondering if you still lurked or not...


Originally Posted by Doggus View Post
...Multiple Sclerosis...
Damn. Wish I hadn't of had to hear that from you bro. It does explain a lot though.
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Old 05-30-12, 01:11 PM
  #46  
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I am getting a coach after the summer. He will only be my coach for 9 months (August to May). He won't be present at my races (there won't be many races anyway), but I will have almost daily interactions with him in person and he will also join workouts now and then. It will be interesting to see how it turns out.
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Old 05-31-12, 01:48 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
The assumption seems to be that the system is broke, but it works just fine as far as I'm concerned. Once guys show aptitude, talent and dedication is the time to invest in coaches.
+1
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Old 06-04-12, 08:55 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
+1
I still think a Cat 5 could really use a coach on his team to help him move up to Cat 4. You don't need all this Cat1/2 talent stuff to hugely benefit. I also still think a team coach can readily help the whole gang better than they'd be if they bought new wheels or even Powermeters (but that's just me). Or, if I'm way OTB on the meters, then an experienced person could quickly help newbies get best results from their gear. From what I've seen, it doesn't seem like racing has changed ALL that much. And I bet a coach like that wouldn't have to cost the team very much -- about like a new tire or two for each rider. I'm not talking personal gurus -- just help. Not riding with all the time or going to all races. Just being there some and helping. It's not rocket science and it doesn't have to be super high level stuff. Beginners need basic help -- beyond what is in books ... or, I bet, even online. The helper DOES have to be there in person some -- enough.

(Tiny story. Back when I raced I watched a new racer gal friend do a crit. She'd done a few. Her boyfriend was a current nat'l champ and top ski coach. She yo-yo'ed off the back until she got dropped at halfway point. I forget what I told her but afterward I asked if I could give her a tip. She was eager. I have a hunch I told her to brake less going into the turns, to slide up thru the group some entering the turn. Who knows. We went on a ride the next week. After that she finished with the bunch then started doing well. It was kinda weird that her boyfriend never seemed to have tried to help her. Maybe he figured it would be best coming from someone else, but he also didn't arrange to make that happen. I certainly wasn't a coach. But beginners probably can be very readily helped to the next modest level by a helpful experienced person. For a team to spend a bit o' cash on such a person -- or even to beg help from someone who they know knows -- seems smarter to me than buying more aero wheels.)

(PS: What the heck does that one poster mean by "ya think?" and some remark about the number of my posts? I've been into sport cycling for decades and have posted now and then here and elsewhere since the Interwebs began. About a buncha different outdoor sports that I enjoy. What does posting frequency and timing have to do with being a "shill"? Anyway, my posts say why I'm interested in the topic. If it's not clear or enough for anyone, whatever.)
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Old 06-04-12, 10:00 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
There was a great vignette in "Ball Four" about a hitting coach who was a terror at the plate back in the day. He couldn't articulate much of anything because he was just a natural talent. After watching guys mess up he would take the bat from them, whack one over the fence, then turn around and say "See? That's how you do it". Being a great racer doesn't make you a great teacher.
That was Yogi Berra.

"Ball Four" is a great book, BTW. Loved it.
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Old 06-05-12, 03:52 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by JeffOYB View Post
I still think a Cat 5 could really use a coach on his team to help him move up to Cat 4. You don't need all this Cat1/2 talent stuff to hugely benefit. I also still think a team coach can readily help the whole gang better than they'd be if they bought new wheels or even Powermeters (but that's just me). Or, if I'm way OTB on the meters, then an experienced person could quickly help newbies get best results from their gear. From what I've seen, it doesn't seem like racing has changed ALL that much. And I bet a coach like that wouldn't have to cost the team very much -- about like a new tire or two for each rider. I'm not talking personal gurus -- just help. Not riding with all the time or going to all races. Just being there some and helping. It's not rocket science and it doesn't have to be super high level stuff. Beginners need basic help -- beyond what is in books ... or, I bet, even online. The helper DOES have to be there in person some -- enough.

(Tiny story. Back when I raced I watched a new racer gal friend do a crit. She'd done a few. Her boyfriend was a current nat'l champ and top ski coach. She yo-yo'ed off the back until she got dropped at halfway point. I forget what I told her but afterward I asked if I could give her a tip. She was eager. I have a hunch I told her to brake less going into the turns, to slide up thru the group some entering the turn. Who knows. We went on a ride the next week. After that she finished with the bunch then started doing well. It was kinda weird that her boyfriend never seemed to have tried to help her. Maybe he figured it would be best coming from someone else, but he also didn't arrange to make that happen. I certainly wasn't a coach. But beginners probably can be very readily helped to the next modest level by a helpful experienced person.
and in a sport where the experienced guys are racing, training, working, and working in family time there's the assumption that there's a ready pool of mentors to support a cat five team.

For a team to spend a bit o' cash on such a person -- or even to beg help from someone who they know knows -- seems smarter to me than buying more aero wheels.)
no it doesn't. people buying stuff drives the industry. fast guys tend to be cheaper.

(PS: What the heck does that one poster mean by "ya think?" and some remark about the number of my posts? I've been into sport cycling for decades and have posted now and then here and elsewhere since the Interwebs began. About a buncha different outdoor sports that I enjoy. What does posting frequency and timing have to do with being a "shill"? Anyway, my posts say why I'm interested in the topic. If it's not clear or enough for anyone, whatever.)
you've gotten multiple responses regarding the suitability of the potential clientele, and the actualities of the money involved but you come back with the same spiel. Join a big club and more experienced racers will be tapped to mentor newer riders. this stuff is already going on, but riders have to look for it and join where the opportunities exist. but a coach isn't going to work for tires, at least not a lot of them. the coach for hire/analyze PM data model may change over time but that's the prevalent model right now.
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