furiousferret

The Category System I thought was designed to place racers in a race where they can be competitive. Its hard enough beating 30-75 guys roughly your level but when 2-3 guys stick around to snipe a few easy wins it probably doesn't help the sport as a whole.

Of course my perspective as a mediocre new racer is going to be vastly different from most other guys on this board.

JohnKScott

Congrats on both!

gsteinb

But that's just the point. USAC doesn't give a wit about you or what you think. The entire system is archaic and is closer to the wild west than anything of a modern trackable computer age. They don't even care enough to insure that the guys who are upgrading before they're ready (because despite all the hand wringing over accumulating points that's not really monitored too closely either) have the necessary skills as to not be a danger.

The finger pointing and whining that goes on around specific individuals is simply misplaced. The system is broke.

ShutUpLegs

That is one thing I don't understand. You have this crazy algorithm for calculating ranking points, but you can't develope a simple calculation to keep track of upgrade points for individuals? Unless I am missing something.

mattm

They posted on FB that their results pages will be down today b/c they're upgrading something or another.. maybe it's happening!

But the problem with that could be if they don't know the length of events (which they don't), they can't give accurate upgrade point counts. And if the points aren't accurate, it would create a ****-storm when people argue with upgrade coordinators that they have X amount of points, according to the USAC site. Who knows.

carpediemracing 

I used to see him at all the races I did. Multi-time masters National Champ in various discipline, crit/track, and he was a 3 during all those jersey wearing years. He's a phenomenal bike handler, used to be an incredibly dirty racer, and he told a confidant (that happened to be a friend of mine) that he would be disappointed if he didn't clear $1k a weekend in prize money. This was 10-20 years ago, when he was competitive in the local 123s. He did get upgraded over the winter for a number of years (not sure why/how but he was a 2), he'd sit up in a bunch of races, and he'd be a 3 by sometime in May. There were a few years (5?) where he was a 2 and I don't recall him being super competitive.

I haven't seen him pull any stunts in probably 5? years, but 10 years ago he was still screaming at the top of his lungs at other racers, me included, for doing exactly what he did to them (sit on wheels and not pull, chase moves, I'm not even including the dirty stuff). I was on the receiving end of a lot of dirty riding from him, stuff like locked tire brake checks at 45 mph on a downhill, bar/hand/forearm shoves, hitting my helmet (hard) with his hand, rear wheel kick at my front wheel at speed (30-40 mph, various times, sprints, downhills, flats), verbally harassing me for 15 minutes in a race for chasing him down (teammate was in a break), sudden speed changes, swerving/slaloming 6-8 feet approaching a turn to claim real estate which I admit I have done a number of times, etc.

I've also puzzled over stuff that he's done bike handling wise that I simply cannot fathom doing, like sprinting up the left curb going into a left turn, with the whole field going across his bow, and somehow not crashing when he makes the left at 30+ mph (I sat up and grabbed a whole lotta brake - this was Turn 3 in Stirling NJ in the last lap, he won, Cat 3s). He also screamed at his teammates to do something along the lines of "use your shoulders, your thighs, push through, crash them, even if you crash, you need to teach them a lesson" etc etc. Paraphrasing but basically you should crash others, even if you crash yourself, so that next time they back down. One of the New Britain races, in the 2005 era.

Nowadays I don't see him that often, partially because I don't race in NY/NJ as much. He's raced at Bethel and at Nutmeg and although he usually beats me I've beaten him a couple times.

There are a number of riders that could conceivably be upgraded based on their superior Masters placings. However for the most part those riders are relatively constructive, do their own thing, etc. They don't, or didn't, go out of their way to antagonize others. I think that counts for a lot in the social aspect of who gets called out or not. For example there are two other multi-time National Champs who raced 3s while during their championship reign at the same time as the rider above (often I'd line up for a Cat 3 race with three current National Champions toeing the line with me). However they didn't instigate a lot of stuff, they seemed to race more honorably. I rarely beat them but I didn't mind losing to them. They raced clean without any weirdness. I never felt physically threatened by them, i.e. they never screamed at me during a race that they were going to punch me, I never felt like they tried to take me down (or tested my bike handling skills by doing stuff that had a high chance of taking me down) etc.

I guess it comes down to the fact that I'm scared of him because he has done violent things on the bike in the past and I have no idea if he'll do it again. I'm not scared of the others because although they're strong/etc they aren't scary. The guy that took me out doesn't do stuff maliciously, he just does things without thinking so he's somewhat predictable. If he sees a gap he'll go for it without checking if he's clear, he'll cut the inside of a turn, etc, but at least that's sort of predictable. He doesn't arbitrarily slam his brakes on while sprinting across a gap or ride up to me and slap my helmet hard enough that I can't see for a moment.

So that's that.

/rant

furiousferret

Guys like him are the reason a lot of our guys no longer race. I've heard stories like yours @carpediemracing but I've always dismissed them as exaggerations.

carpediemracing 

It's nutty, right?

Ditto with suspensions. They don't track suspensions so once you serve a suspension for, say, taking out another rider intentionally, you have no record. If you do it again, it's like you never did it before. I proposed a tactic where a team with four riders takes turns taking out the field behind them in the last turn of a race. You could have two riders in each Sunday race (recommended "taking someone out" suspension is 20 days, so 2 racing weeks), one to literally sweep the field off the other's wheel.

I got taken out by a rider that should have been suspended the week prior but instead only got relegated (he caused a massive crash when he swerved across a few riders' lines in a field sprint, then did the same thing a week and a couple days later). If there was any kind of a suspension database it'd have been clear that this was a behavioral pattern for this rider.

I proposed that suspensions be escalating, i.e. if you take out a rider then your first offense is 20 days (currently the recommended time), second 200, third 2000 days, with some kind of "resetting schedule", like 2-5 years without a repeat offense. The goal would be to remove intentionally dangerous riders from the sport (hence the 6+ year suspension for a third offense - maybe the 4th would be 20,000 days?). My proposal got shot down since they don't track stuff like suspensions, that was the reply I got from USAC.

hack

Sounds like a cool cat ...I take it from your experience that his approach isn't the old school more rough & tumble style of racing, but rather intentionally dangerous for the sake of winning at literally all costs?

shovelhd

For USAC to accurately track upgrade points, all it would take is a student intern. The data is available. It's not rocket science. They already have a database driven website. It's a few more fields and stored procedures. Even Homebrew could do it.

globecanvas

CDR I certainly believe your experiences. FWIW I saw absolutely nothing like that at Harlem, and according to photos he was on my wheel for a good part of the race (including the last lap where I generously led him out). Almost 1/3 of the field crashed out*, but I didn't see any dirty racing from anybody. For the most part people were eager to go fast and not die.

The current NYC upgrade guy (ER) is known for following the letter of the rules, at least as far as not upgrading guys who are borderline. No points for races that are 2 minutes too short, looking up individual racers in mixed fields, etc. His priority seems to be making sure racers are not creating bad situations by being over their heads, which is sort of the opposite of force upgrading guys. Given the amount of vitriol spewed at the upgrade guy on nyvelocity etc, I have to sympathize with him. What an utterly crap job.

For sure, given the capriciousness of how various upgrade rules are followed by different upgrade coordinators, the "system" is only nominally a system. On the other hand, a lot of old timers argue for a more qualitative upgrade process where whoever is making the decision knows you and assesses your abilities subjectively. Sort of leaves the whole thing in a muddle.



* I have yet to see helmet/bike cam video from the race that does not end with the POV on the deck.

gsteinb

Now CDR you're of reasonable mind. How many cat 3 races would one need to win in a weekend to make 1k?

carpediemracing 

He was doing 1-2 Masters (depending on his age), 3s, and, in the M35 days, sometimes P123 races. At Harlem one year he placed in three races, including winning the 3s (I think 1st, 2nd, 1st). He placed 3 times similarly at a few Nutmegs (historically lots of money so it'd draw out the NY racers) including placing 2nd or 3rd in the 123 race after winning two races earlier in the day. Oyster Bay paid $900 for the Cat 3 winner (I was 4th that year - he might have been second, I don't think he won). I saw a $200 1st place payout to him for just the 3s when I was getting a 6th place $30 in NJ somewhere - that's the race where he told me he won 21 or so races that season so far, placed second like 27 times, and I lost track of all his other places; a rough calculation put him at 200+ points on his license, but back then there was no mandatory upgrade, only mandatory approvals for upgrades if someone asked. He was friendly that day for some reason, one of the last times he was to me.

Since he was eligible to race 2-3 times a day, since he could win or place top three in each of them, and he'd race Sat/Sun, $1000 would have been reasonable for a good weekend. He probably had more $500 weekends than $1000 weekends but I'm sure he's had higher weekends as well.

gsteinb

It's useful for those following along to note you're talking about a time frame long long ago. I'd also posit that much of this is the stuff of urban legend. Something happens once and it becomes 'happens all the time.' Pros have a hard time making $1000 a week with salary. Unless we're finding out why threes are the ultimate category.

carpediemracing 

Yes. The last race where we tangled we both ended the race on the ground with about 400-500m to go, ironically not because of him. Neither of us really hurt but obviously neither of us were in the money. At one point in the race we had a space around us as the other riders literally made room for us/him, he was screaming at me so furiously - every other word out of his mouth was F and every third/fourth word was a word for women's anatomy things. I think he put "You" in front of those words for pretty much every sentence he spit at me. This was a race where I felt the brunt of his anger - brake checks, helmet hits, hand hits (which are really dangerous for me because a hand/bar hit affects my balance), grabbing my forearm, the screaming, etc, multiple times over about 15 minutes straight and then randomly until the end of the race. He also pointed out to me at some point in a heated way that he's a black belt in karate or something (tae kwon do? I have no idea). Although I suppose he could have been yelling just a fact ("The Corvette ZR-1 has 450 hp!") the way he yelled at me that he has a black belt in a martial arts sounded threatening.

*edit Poughkeepsie in the park, not the streets, maybe 1997.

In other races - 123 Prospect Park or Central Park races, which the guy typically won when I raced there - I was tasked to sweep our Cat 1 sprinter's wheel. I couldn't sprint with the P123s, never really could, but I could definitely take up real estate. He had some choice words for me after the line, a helmet slap or two, after waiting for me to cross the line. I told him everything I did that day I learned from watching him, which was true but he didn't like hearing that. Our sprinter never won one of those races, but I think he got 4th that day.

*One of the bigger Central Park races, maybe the Lou Maltese Memorial? 1997.

He's the only one that's ever hit my helmet so those stand out, and he's done it a number of times. It's like being slapped in the face without the skin contact.

Ironically he apparently has about a 2 year old daughter right now. The mom and the daughter sat next to the Missus and Junior at a race maybe last year? The Missus knows some of the stories so she was a bit surprised when the mom told her the father's name. No idea if any of it is true but I don't see a reason for the mom to lie about the dad, she was so proud of her daughter. The mom seemed really nice, and in fact while I cooled down from whatever race I did I got to greet her as well. I think I might have gotten shelled in a few laps so maybe I was cooling down during my race.

*New Britain 2013? 2012?

Old school is okay, one of the two other guys does that stuff (those "guys" meaning Masters National Champions in the crit and on the track, racing Cat 3s even as a Nat Champ). Shovel has been on the receiving end of that rider, I've only had one minor encounter with him recently (a non-event because it wasn't significant to the race). It was just some knuckle rubbing, him claiming a spot. He could have easily done the same thing without the contact but it appears he did it on purpose to drive the point home (he was studiously ignoring the rider to his side so I think he was doing it generically, not because it was me - I've studiously ignored the rider to my side and then looked and realized it was a friend etc).
*New Britain, 2013

I've accidentally piled into him in a turn in a crit (the guy to my inside plowed into me really hard, basically t-boning me, pushing me into the rider to my outside which was "the guy"). After the race I found him and apologized and he said he knew who I was and he knew I wouldn't do that on purpose and it was okay. For me that was significant, to hear it from him that I was okay.
*Poughkeepsie crit, M35?, 2002

I've watched him do some insanely strong moves, like leading himself out with about 400m to go at Nutley and winning alone (Cat 3s). I was next to him just before he went and I actually didn't react because I thought it an impossible move, that he was just staking a claim on a spot in the field. We were going something like 45-50 mph down the hill before the very close together left, right, left into the final straight, and he went blasting out of the field on the hard left at the bottom of the hill. There were guys scattering onto the sidewalk to move up or avoid weirdness, etc, and he was cool as a cucumber. I did Nutley three times, 11th, crashed in the last turn, and some field finish, so it was the field finish year.
*Nutley, late 1980s? Maybe 1989. I don't think it was the last one they held.

Another one of the "guys", who appeared in my last clip, didn't even do that "rough & tumble" stuff, at least not so I'd notice. He'd defend, he'd take wheels, but he never needed to take a hand off the bars unless the other guy did something truly weird. To me he's a class rider so to have him comment positively on my moves going into the sprint and the sprint itself, that was really nice. It's like, say, Cipollini (or some other now-older racer) telling a rider he has a good sprint, or, more significantly, that the rider made some good moves leading up to the sprint. A sprint is more genetic, it is what it is. Good moves in the field, that's different.

waterrockets 

Sounds like an opening to just fark with him the whole race. You already have his attention.

Also reminds me of a Cat 2 teammate who once got fed up with such behavior from another rider, and just tackled him right out of the pack. He was on top of him throwing punches as they slid to a stop, then he got back on his bike and chased on, bloody as hell from the "crash." That was my craziest all-time teammate for sure -- more scars than skin, but he was freakishly strong.

hack

Yeah...the helmet slaps would be pretty shocking and uncool.

carpediemracing 

I pointed out that I haven't seen him make a weird move in at least 5 years. 10 years, I think that's being kind to him. I can't remember specifics in about 2004 or so I think he was racing at a 2 during that time period. The worst was the late 90s. The bit where he told his teammate to crash other people was in 2005-2006 era, it was after my mom died and after I got into some reasonable shape again, and it was after the race finished that he berated his teammate.

The moves I saw him make, the words he yelled at me, or the hits I felt him when he hit me absolutely happened, 100%.

His tally of one yet-to-be-completed-season wins and placings, which was insane but probably true, came from him, and I believe him. I was on form that year so it was in the 1992-1993 range.

Black belt? I believe that too. He told me after New Britain, when he so casually rode away from me after I jumped. He won, I got 3rd. 1992. Incidentally in that race I never saw a bad move from him. It was in later years that it got bad.

The money might be urban legend because I only heard it second hand, but the person that told me was a friend of his and thought at the time that I was a friend as well (and in fact was recommending I ride with him or something like that).

I didn't see him for a decent number of years, 5 or so years, so I think he was a 2 for a while, or he quit, or something. I was doing Floyd Bennet Field regularly, racing in NJ, NYC, and I just never ran into him. Maybe I just chose races he wasn't doing, I don't know.

carpediemracing 

I was scared of him in that race, had that scared adrenaline rush thing going. I had a bunch of teammates so they were protective of me, and although none of them were black belts or anything there was a comfort in numbers. Some of the other racers told him to cool it but it was only when the racing got fast that it got quieter.

What I don't get is why. He's such a better rider than me. When he jumps he absolutely demolishes me. He is so so so so fast. He's usually much stronger than me, meaning way more fit. I've been at races where he's chased after an early move on the last lap, the early move guy blows up, and then he goes from 400-500m out and wins. Crazy fast, crazy strong. I don't get why he even needed to mess with me. I virtually never place top 6 outside of Bethel and I literally have never won a summer race in over 30 seasons of racing. I'm a non-threat.

To be fair I haven't seen stuff like this from him in at least 5 years. Still, though, it's a bit nutty. Stuff can get wacky at bike races. Like when the racer drove his car, pretty fast, into the registration tent at Bethel. On purpose. Or a Cat 3 attacked on the hill at Bethel, 100% attack, while he was in the middle of the field. I couldn't believe he stayed upright but he did, sending a few riders to the ground and scattering everyone else. Everyone chased him, he tried to get back in line, and a crashed rider's teammate backhanded him in the face. The attacker guy wrote me a heated letter saying that I run a poor race where only favorites and friends get to attack but not riders outside of the clique. Recently (the Nutmeg clip I have online where it's raining) one rider fell in the mud next to the course on the backstretch. The other guy, whose derailleur got mangled, ran back to the guy in the mud and started jumping up and down on the mud guy's bike, breaking stuff on it. Wacky.

Yep.

jsutkeepspining

I just had a high school style bike race last night. Everyone was acting like a goddamn child, so i just sat in and kept my mouth shut. Weird to see adults resorting to name-calling in a soft ball league style setting.

hack

You should go visit your local softball complex some day. You'd be suprised what that environment yields. After running and before cycling and even before the gym, I played a lot of tournament softball and it was pretty much a guarantee that each tournament would have a game end in a fight. Competition promotes competitive mindsets which brings out some unfavorable actions.

gsteinb

I don't know anything about the vast majority of stuff in this post. I'm simply saying you're talking about a time a long time ago, which had more money in the amateur sport than now. Even still I call BS on threes winning 1K or even 500 every weekend. That's what I'm saying is an urban myth. That isn't to say there wasn't some big pay day at some race (I won a crap ton of money a few years back in the 1,2 race at orchard beach), but that no one is making the kind of money that guys talk about when they're boasting about someone they know.

mattm

The whole $1k thing isn't actually relevant to the discussion at hand.

It's not a huge deal, this one sandbagger, and luckily points are given for 2nd through 6th place anyway so it's not like he's blocking anyone's upgrade.

My problem with it is that it' just really, really lame.

gsteinb

I think it is relevant actually, in the same way Dr. O was a sandbagger, and the next guy. This stuff acquires mythical status. JJ is such a sandbagger he makes 1k a week racing his bike. Never mind that Phil Gaimon lived on Raman noodles.

Here's a guy you don't know. Who's present resume you don't know. And you've over laid mythical sand bagger status on him. In reality he'll win 3 races this year, and finish DFL in 5 times that many. I can't imagine he cares that you think it 'lame.' The simple fact is USAC sucks. It sucks ass. On every conceivable level. So if guys want it to be otherwise they need to be more proactive than just *****ing about one guy via a message board.

mattm

Ok.

Someone posted his results, his upgrade point tally is in the hundreds.. that kind of speaks for itself. There's not really an argument about whether or not he's sandbagging.

Also, USAC is great. Without them we'd all be on some grand fondo board comparing saddle sores or something.