shovelhd

Wait, did you just invite me for free pizza???

Woosh.

globecanvas

Good luck to everyone at New Haven tonight!

JoesInBoston

2016 might be the last year for Battenkill? I've never promoted a race before but it seems ridiculous to me that they are having trouble staying afloat when bikereg says they had 1934 registrants this past year. If a road race this popular can't survive, what can?

https://www.facebook.com/battenkill/...84197954965061

globecanvas

All events have a life cycle, even super-marquee events like Battenkill. I think the issue there might be more about promoter burnout. Dieter has been vocal this year about being pretty much fed up with all of the hassle of promoting races.

Who knows what will happen, he's certainly not committing to pulling the plug after next year, and maybe somebody else will step up to carry it on. But IMO, if he's not into it any more, it makes more sense to walk away from a successful event than to wait until it's not successful any more.

notwist

Anyone have any recommendations for a good bike fitter in the NJ/NY area? I haven't had a proper bike fit since I started riding years ago and am thinking it might be a good thing to do heading into the offseason. I could go to my closest LBS but am wondering if there are any notable fitters that would be worth seeing and are more geared specifically to racer types.

echappist

Ben at Westwood Cycles for time trial; i believe he also fitted our benevolent overlord @gsteinb

gsteinb

I highly recommend former pro Bill Elliston.

I know Ben, but Bill set my bike up.

dz_nuzz

I hope he will be willing to pass the torch to another promoter. This used to really be one of my favorite races and honestly I have spouted enough hate about the promoter to last a lifetime BUT: One thing that bothers me is that he is saying that the event is becoming financially difficult. I just don't see how that is. It pretty much sells out each year at 2X the price of most races, he has slashed prize money, and is now operating without USAC rider fees. I simply don't believe him when he says that it is not financially feasible, perhaps it isn't as profitable as he would like, but by his standards every other race in the New England area would be operating so far in the red that a government bailout wouldn't save them.

Ygduf

seems like you have yourself a sweet business opportunity

dz_nuzz

Baby steps. First a Cross race, then Battenkill, then onto WORLD DOMINATION.

globecanvas

+1, though he's in eastern PA, not NY/NJ.

https://www.ellistoncoaching.com/

gsteinb

AvD of New York was the promoter of the spring series. He attempted to sell the series for a sizable chunk of change. When he couldn't work out a deal he announced a week before the series was to start that he was pulling the plug allowing the dates to fall into disuse effectively losing them forever (apparently dealing with the NYC parks dept isn't easy).

Unless promoters make money putting on races I'm not sure what the allure would be to continue. Why is making whatever they think they should be a no-no? CDR has been clear that he generally loses money or makes very little for his spring series. That's an office park crit. One of the cheapest kind of races to put on. Generally the same folks who ride carbon fiber whatchamacallits have no issue that those along the supply chain make a living. I'd love to see promoters making enough to live on so we can be assured to continue to have multitudes of high quality races.

dz_nuzz

There is a reality that racing your bike is not a great way to make a living. Sure there are outliers (AKA World Tour) but in general anyone operating at the amateur level and even some of the lower pro levels don't really make enough to live on. Why should a race promoter at the amateur level believe it should be any different for them? We race because we love the sport, and many race promoters put on races because they love the sport. Sorry but there is a reality to this, it is not an industry that is flush with cash but apparently some promoters believe that if they cut enough corners and push the participants to the edge of the financial pain threshold they can make a good living, wrong.

Right now my team is trying to do the race promoter thing, many of us have invested time and money into putting on a simple CX race, probably an even cheaper form of race than an office park crit. We don't expect to get anything back, we do it because we love the sport.

gsteinb

I think your view is a bit off the mark, and I'm a guy who teaches meditation for a living; meaning I mainly rely on donations for a living. Your team should put on a race. It's the rule isn't it? To be a team you have to give back. But that's simply not enough races. Without folks making cash the scene dries up. NYC racing, one of the richest racing calendars in the entire country, is largely put on by folks making money off the races. Maybe your team should take on a race like battenkill, which would (I imagine) require sustained and long term effort.

What you propose (amateur promoters) gives you what you got at that stage race. So perhaps not cry so loudly about mickey mouse results?

>Why should a race promoter at the amateur level believe it should be any different for them?

because why shouldn't they make money giving you an opportunity to pursue your hobby? You're happy to support your LBS and the various manufactures as well as clothing folks you use. Why is the promoters time not worth making money from? This view flabbergasts me. It's the very view of someone who uses my time, doesn't offer anything, and carries the view I practice meditation because I love it and no one pays me to meditate, so they should teach because they love it. Oy.

furiousferret

I've volunteered for a few races, and being at the registration table a block away from the race has nothing to do with racing. A few of my friends help keep the Redlands Bike Classic going, and it is real work. Cold calls for sponsors, putting together the course, coordinating services, etc. None of it is 'fun' and they really don't get anything in return for it; maybe a photo with big name domestic pro (whoop de doo). That's for a race that's backed by the city, try running one half the city wants shut down (like Everest Challenge) Its 10x more a pain than anything we do as racers and you can't really compare.

Personally, I'd like to see promoters make more. Its a job, and there should be potential for reasonable profit without harsh criticism. If there's money to be made, races will pop up.

dz_nuzz

As for your career decisions: I am sorry that people are cheap skates.

gsteinb

actually the stage race I was talking about was GMSR. Not the same promoter as Battenkill as far as I'm aware. The point was that most races in other sports have money being generated, people getting paid, and things getting done well. Supported by people who think these things should be free or cheap it's best to expect pretty marginal service. Gee whiz mount washington is $350 and it sells out immediately.

I simply don't think you have a realistic perspective on what it costs to run a race, or that if a promoter wants to decide to do something that's out of line with the market place that the marketplace will self correct.

Different perspectives. I don't see how the sport survives here your way. It can cost 10K to close a downtown for a crit.

Grumpy McTrumpy

Having been a promoter, and worked with them: The cost in stress is a major factor in addition to the financial.

I got offered the Watkins Glen race. I turned it down.

A promoter who sticks with the sport is someone who truly loves the sport more than you know.

Enthalpic

I don't know, he has two houses.

gsteinb

that's from a former life.

And really the point isn't that people are cheapskates, because many are quite generous and I'm pretty lucky to people to derive something like a living doing what I'm doing. There are many though who wouldn't think of giving back, and it's unfortunate.

DieterDrake

Interesting reading.

We have far more 'customers' than any bike shop I know of. Anywhere. That may be a blessing and a curse at the same time.


From our 2016 reg page....

"It's a lot of work. If you think it's not worth the entry fee, then you probably shouldn't come..."

dz_nuzz

Yeah, GMSR was USAC having a series of royal screw ups, nothing related to the race organizer. I don't see how you can equate my stance on race promotion to be the same as me "whining" that USAC threw the entire GC of my race into hellish disarray. Last I checked the promoters are not responsible for that.

I don't think you understand my point here. I have no issue with the way the majority of races are run in this area, the race fees, or the general organization minus a few outliers. Unless I am mistaken the races seem to be running year over year, perhaps things are more tentative than anyone would like but they run. I am not advocating the promoters operating in the red, but I don't believe it is realistic for them to believe that this is something that they can turn a healthy profit from. Pointing to other sports is ridiculous we all know our sport exists outside of the mainstream and thus there is not as much cash flow in it.
@DieterDrake is a perfect example of trying to squeeze as much cash as possible from a race. When I did this race as a Cat 5 and Cat 4 it was fine from my limited racing perspective. The payouts were pretty good, it was pretty well run, had USAC licensing, etc. Even then it was running multiple lower category fields, the price was high but I was still okay with it then. Then when I went to it as a 3 things changed, some of my friends were lead on a totally wrong course. Once you start charging a premium above other races more is expected from you. Then this year it got funnier, prize money was slashed and prices remained high. Next year it wont even be USAC licensed.

This is a prime example of trying to bleed people dry. Raise the prices and lower the cost. In many ways the same thing happened at Catskills.

Now if everyone had to do these things to get their race to survive, fine. But we have prime examples of other races that seem to be surviving (GMSR, KSR, Tokeneke, Purgatory, Sunapee, etc.) without doing the exact same thing.

What this really boils down to alot of these races is the name or marketing associated with them. Washington is "Mount Washington", people put damn stickers on their car saying they climbed it (In their car, seriously). Battenkill was "The Queen of the Classics". It boils down to the fact that there is a "name" associated with it and people want to be able to charge more for that. If you are hitting the general population that treats it as a novelty thing to do, then sure, charge more for the novelty if you can swing it. But you are dealing with bike racers, we race year in and year out, we don't care about the novelty because it isn't there for us, so trying to charge racers for the novelty just isn't going to work.

You need to be more specific about "We", does this refer to Anthem Sports, or does this refer to race promoters in general? Or perhaps just one race? No context here.

gsteinb

" I am not advocating the promoters operating in the red, but I don't believe it is realistic for them to believe that this is something that they can turn a healthy profit from. Pointing to other sports is ridiculous we all know our sport exists outside of the mainstream and thus there is not as much cash flow in it.

I understand your point. I just think you're wrong.

dz_nuzz

Well apparently racing continues to survive despite me being wrong.

DieterDrake

I really don't think I need to be any more specific. "We" means exactly what it says - I can't speak for other promoters.

We have made no secret of the fact that we are are a business whose goal is to make a profit. My time is as valuable as yours and, if I am going to take the financial and legal risk for racers to be provided with the opportunity to sue me, then I am going to charge a premium for that. If that means that we select out the people who might otherwise take that opportunity, then so be it. Aside form that, it's a pretty well-run event by any standard, despite the small human errors that are inevitable with any event of this complexity. "We" think our humans are pretty good, though. People keep coming back, so that's good. We're very fortunate in this respect.

"pass the torch to another promoter"?? Sure. 12 years of my life and a $500k+ investment is yours, for free. Free. free. free.