Hermes

That does not mean that Froome is doping on the list and it does not mean that Lemond was clean vis a vis the WADA list. Merckx was busted for drugs and as I recall amphetamines. In fact, I think we should review every climb Lemond did during his career and see if any were close to Armstrong's accent rate. If they are, then he is a doper too but association. Now, I think that type of comparison is wrong and unfair to Lemond but that is what others are doing to Froome.

There are many reasons why athletes may or may not develop rapidly. Maybe Froome was just not that motivated or lacked resources. Maybe Sky offered something that clicked for him. Or maybe, they have the stuff off the list that works.

Off the WADA list is off the list.

echappist

well, if you watch the stage of the 2011 ToC where Greg Henderson basically sprinted for 30+ seconds for the win, you hear him say afterwards that the next few stages they'll look after their team leader Chris Froome. And where did Froome finish in that race? something lower than 35th...

Grumpy McTrumpy

Vayer's article pretty much already did this.

Hermes

Maybe Froome was mediocre because he was not doping and others were. Now that the other contenders are not doping, Froome's performance is superior.

All I am saying is that I can make arguments in favor of Froome and Team Sky that they are in compliance with WADA. The arguments may or may not be great but they are as good as some arguments stating Sky is evading testing and using banned substances based upon climb times and chasing down Quintanna.

Doge

Legal is not. Repost from my #529
Any pharmacological substance which is not addressed by any of the subsequent sections of the List and with no current approval by any governmental regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use (e.g drugs under pre-clinical or clinical development or discontinued, designer drugs, substances approved only for veterinary use) is prohibited at all times.

Doge

Punched by fan, urine in face? No place for this in cycling.

gsteinb

what Doge said.

Grumpy McTrumpy

another level-headed perspective on this whole thing : Neanderthals, aliens, performance data & context | The Science of Sport

This isn't a simple case of "if A then B". There are just too many little bits of doubt all pointing in the same direction: a repeat of 10-15 year old history. Can I prove anything? No. But I (and others in this thread) have pointed at a whole lot of little bits of doubt.

Skepticism and Suspicion are not Hate, either. There's really no emotion involved, other than a fatalistic "oh jeez this **** again" feeling upon seeing history repeating itself yet again.

Again, I remain open to being convinced otherwise. Present me with an adequate logical contrary response to all of the little bits of doubt. I have yet to hear any that resonated.

globecanvas

What? Was whoever did this arrested?

Grumpy McTrumpy

Deja Vu Mark Cavendish sprayed with urine during Tour de France time trial | Sport | The Guardian

https://www.bicycling.com/racing/2015...-merckx-part-3

Hermes

The substance will not be classified as a pharmacological substance e.g. the $2000 water.

Grumpy McTrumpy

The assumption that the Ketone drink (that everyone is talking about) is their secret doping program is illogical. Since the general public already know about it, if it really provided the Magic Legs Button, then all the GC favorite teams would use it. A few thou is nothing to Tinkoff. Additionally, WADA know of its existence and haven't even chosen to monitor it.

Hermes

Do people believe that Team Sky went to Tenerife with a Belgian doctor and a truck load of EPO, testosterone and blood bags and then trained and used EPO with the goal of collecting their own blood for infusion during the final week of the TdF this year while evading the bio passport whereabouts testers? And they are currently micro dosing EPO?

I find that almost impossible to believe

Hermes

My point is that a performance enhancing substance may not have pharmacological substance classification today....even though it should.

And GMT, I am not trying to convince anyone and could care less of Team Sky is DQed. Just trying to argue on their behalf since Gsteinb said no one was.

gsteinb

I believe I'm not a doctor or a scientist, and thus have no idea what they're doing. But having followed the sport for nearly 35 years I'm pretty certain they're doing something and given the current trend they'll eventually get caught having done what already done.

Grumpy McTrumpy

I never even considered it. Those are garden variety doping techniques available to every Tom Dick and Harry*, and are proven to work and not be testable as long as you microdose below the Bio Passport levels.

If I had to hazard a wild guess as to what the secret doping sauce is, I'd pick something that trickled down from the "Metabolically Dominant Soldier" program that DARPA got 3 billion dollars for back between 2002 and 2006, and then shut down. Those four years must have produced something.

*Astana, Tinkoff, Movistar... etc

gsteinb

You're making my point, as you think they're dirty. You want to parse words and say their dirty is ok because you believe it's something not on some list. But it's not clear that what their on won't eventually get them tossed (like for example sera).

Arguing for the sake arguing seems to not be your strong suit.

Hermes

I think they are on something but are technically in compliance and therefore not dirty. IMO, you want to make rules that are beyond what is written. And I get that.

Grumpy McTrumpy

I cannot agree with this sentiment. It's tantamount to saying that the first guys to do massive doses of EPO and win big back in the early 90s were not dirty. They knew they were dirty. That's why they kept it a secret. At some point people need to man up and get a conscience.

Doge

But...will they get equal punishment to others. Some (one) are banned for life, not allowed around, and others start clothing companies, write books and are invited to events and become announcers.
The enforcement/punishment should be the same.

The treatment of Lance vs. the treatment of others is way out of balance.

gsteinb

dude. You act like I made the ****ing punishments. Next post will be another comparing epo use to cursing.

Ygduf

See, personal attacks whenever anyone disagrees.

If it turns out they are drinking that $k/liter ketonerade that isn't banned, how angry will you be?

Ygduf

I dunno. It's more a gray area to me if they are like, not technically cheating. If they are drinking ketones or something, that seems fishy, but it's not banned. Was Landis dirty for the praying mantis TT position with his arms high and tucked before they changed the rule? I don't know.

Ygduf

Also, the stage today was great. The winner (I forget his name) rode through the 2-up the way Sagan failed to yesterday. Pretty nice move by that guy.

Grumpy McTrumpy

Bad analogy. There was nothing secret about Landis' position. If you are proposing that using a specific body position is somehow equal to megadoses of EPO then I have to just conclude again,

hopeless.

The point of a debate is simply to get to the truth. Arguments backed up with logic and evidence are considered. Emotional stuff... ignored.