Sizzle82

First of all a little backround. I have been into cycling for 5 years or so, just the last two seriously. I have been mostly into triathlons, but did a couple criteriums last year and I think I found my new love. I got a new rig this year (cervelo S5 if that matters) and I also trained some last year with a powertap. My plan for this year is to race as many crits (cat 5 obviously) allow shooting for at least 5 and a couple TT's with a "A" race at the end of the season.
So my question is do you think it would be wise to get a coach? Or should I just use Trainerroad, ride as much as possible focusing on upping my FTP and just race as hard as I can? I amd not going to win a million dollars or anything but Im a competitive and want to get some good results.

Alaska Mike

Depends.
On the surface, given your goals, I'd say no.
Digging a little deeper-
- How old are you?
- How many hours a week do you train?
- Do you have any problems developing/adapting and then sticking to a structured training plan?
- Are you the analytical that likes to dive into the data to monitor training progress?

I looked at all of those things, and ended up with a coach. One of the main reasons I got a coach was out trainer season is 6 months long, give or take, and maintaining long-term focus can be difficult. If I know someone is watching or expecting something from me, I usually do better. YMMV. Besides, she is much better than I am at developing training plans that lead to steady improvement and don't burn me out. As a bonus, I don't have to think. I just turn the pedals.

I have all the training books (I almost finished one a few years ago), but I've found greater success with a live coach. Everyone is different.

MDcatV

i've trained lots of different ways (ride lots, self coached and coached with HR, self coached and coached with no gadgets, self coached and coached with power) and have always had my best race successes when working with a coach. speaking only for myself, gaining fitness isnt very hard, you just "do" and it will come as a byproduct of riding your bike, but i've frequently struggled being fresh for race day as opposed to bringing residual fatigue to the starting line. being a coached athlete has really benefited me in that regard.

furiousferret

I've ran the gamut as well and would say if you can afford it get a coach and at least try it out. If you're posting this already it seems like you may have stagnated and are a bit frustrated, so I would at least try it out.

carpediemracing 

Location/region?

Fitness is a small part of being a Cat 5 racer, except for TTs and anything with a significant hill in it. It's just as, or more important, to race smart.

For example our Cat 4-5 riders were struggling in the Tues Night Races locally for the first week or two. I didn't say much (I'm a 3 and was in the same race, but with the idea to help others, not go for the win myself) but I could see they were getting frustrated. They just didn't know what to do, and in the last 5 laps of the race they were unable to respond to the moves.

I figured they were as strong or stronger than any others out there, including me, but they weren't racing up to it.

I asked a couple people, got some agreement from them, and I answered some of their questions on my blog (you'll have to go forward in time to see each of the posts, or you can start here and work backward).

Huge improvement, and in a week there'd be no change in fitness, relatively speaking.

First "good" result was a few weeks later, and I made a clip of it (below). What's incredible is just how strong my teammates were, and they were always this strong. They simply weren't applying their fitness in a smart way. The star of the race below is Heavy D and he was struggling to even see the front at the end of the races previously. He was doing way too much work during the race, effectively sabotaging his chances for either a break or a field sprint. When he raced a bit smarter he got a better result.

topflightpro

I am a big fan of coaches, and if you think you might want one, give it go. Many of them, especially the ones you can find through this forum, do not force you to sign long term contracts. (That said, it generally takes a few months to see the benefit of coaching.)

And sometimes the first coach is not the right one for you. I've had six coaches in eight years.
No. 1: Free, local guy, great information, his work schedule became to hectic to help me.
No. 2: Another local guy. Offered reasonable rates and had a good reputation as a coach. But after about six months, and right after I bought a power meter at his direction, he suddenly flaked out and said he couldn't coach me any more.
No. 3: Was good for awhile, but just stopped providing workout plans or returning calls or emails. I had paid him in advance too and did not get my sixth month of training.
No. 4: Local guy, reasonable rate, rode with him regularly, provided great plans, but not great with feedback. Would have stuck with him longer but...
No. 5: Local guy and teammate. Wanted to train me and offered to do so free, and I couldn't pass up free. Great plans, great feedback. He was a good coach, but he and his wife had two kids and then he moved to the middle of nowhere Vermont. It was a mutual decision for me to find another coach as he just wasn't able to provide the same level of coaching.
No. 6: He's on this forum, so I won't say much more.

mattm

in short, no.

unless it was free.

Ygduf

QFT.

OP, you are cat 5. You don't even know if you'll like racing. Go race this year, see how far you get, then decide if getting a coach would help you enjoy the sport more. Ain't nobody getting rich out here, so enjoyment should be priority #1 .

TexMac

I started cycling last 2013 June and started racing CAT5 crits May 2014, struggled a lot, over trained, bad diet etc till i hired a coach. I have Improved in those races plus road race. Best investment ever! I like my coach because he understands i have a full time job, kids and other stuff in the world so we work around those things. Holds me accountable and advises on my diet plus strength training. Waay cheaper than my friends coach who i ussually drop and keep on asking me who's my coach . One thing i don't like about my friends coach is, it seems they have one program fits everyone and i see my friends struggle to keep up. Best yet, i found him here and had like 5 refferals who I interviewed.

Sizzle82

Thanks for all of the advice and a expertise. I have looked at a couple of coaches online, since there is nobody local. Im a USAT certified coach so its not like im completely clueless about setting up schedules and putting a plan to work. I just new to crit racing and didn't know if I should give it a full year of trying before I jump into a coach.

Alaska Mike

If you are a coach, and you actually understand how to train with a power meter (instead of just riding around with one), hiring a coach isn't going to help you much more than any number of readily available training plans out there- at least at this stage in the game. It's a lot easier to win at the Cat 5 level with a big diesel, because the tactics aren't there. Strong guys drop the weak guys. The guys that continue to place well at higher levels add tactical sense and a turbo to that diesel.

You just need to change the training focus from the steady efforts of triathlon to the explosive and pack-centric efforts of road racing. After that, "spirited" group rides will help round out your fitness, tactics, and bike-handling skills.

Give it a season or two before you make your decision. Knock out the low-hanging fruit on your own, then hire a coach when you start to flat line.

TheKillerPenguin

Cart before the horse.

shovelhd

Either way is fine. A coach for a Cat5 can speed up the learning process, but you'll learn best on your own in races where your coach won't be. The one thing that a coach can really help with at any level is balancing intensity with rest, keeping you sharp and focused for your A races yet still competitive for the others.

Sizzle82

Thanks guys I guess Im probably just going set up a training plan on my own work on base plan with thresehold interval training mixed with some longer tempo efforts for seat time and see how the season fairs. I guess if I don't see results and decide that racing is for me I will go from there. I appreciate the tips.

carpediemracing 

I must have not completed my thought in my long post above.

Basically I'm saying that many Cat 5 racers are plenty strong enough. A coach for fitness/speed? Probably not necessary. If you can go 20-22 mph on a training ride then you're way stronger than me - I'm going 3-5 mph slower than that on a good day. On a less good day I might be doing 12-15 mph and think I actually made an effort doing it. I normally get shelled close to first when it comes to group rides and stuff, to the point that a non-racing 50+ woman asked me if I was really trying when she rode me off her wheel. I was absolutely redlined and the terrain (20-30 minutes of climbing) didn't allow me to use any tactics/techniques, it was all about w/kg. However, when it comes to racing, I can hold my own in flatter events.

Many Cat 5 racers don't know how to race. Coach for that? Would be well worth it. I bet that a moderately fit racer can go from even not finishing to being top 10 in a couple races (and in a field of 50, not of 12). The few fit Cat 5s I've helped have gotten, at worst, 3rd in the first race they did after they asked me for help. Some 5s, and 4s, have won within 2-3 races. One Cat 4 I helped won three Tues races in a row and then got 3rd at a target race that took place at about that same time. Previously he hadn't won a Tues race and I don't think he ever got a top 3. He's since won an A race (I worked for him that day), got 2nd in that same target race as a 3 (I tried to work for him that day as well).

Issue is that a coach type rider normally can't race with Cat 5s so they can't watch you race. You're left with using a coach that will review bike/helmet cam footage (helmet preferred, at least for me) along with an accompanying power or HR graph that includes speed/cadence. This would allow a coach to really see what you're doing, when, and how it's affecting you physiologically.

My clip above is from the Tues Night races around here. The races were reformatted to allow 3s in the traditionally 4-5 race. This allowed more experienced teammates to race with their newer racers. Two teams in particular did this, my team being one of them.

Bottom line - fitness isn't everything like it is in time trial type events (time trials, triathlons, anything with running, climbing hills longer than 30-60 seconds long, etc). How you apply that fitness will make much more of a difference in your results, at least initially.

YMCA

is what I would say.

shovelhd

If your focus is racing crits, then threshold and tempo should not be your primary concern. You should have a good base of that from being a triathlete. FTP can always be improved, but there are many ways to do it, and you should be thinking more about how you are going to respond to the many surges that are well above threshold.

Sizzle82

I get what you are saying. I weigh 143 right now and 195 FTP. Im a good rider and I train a lot. I just don't know if I am doing the right training. One of the problems I have is that there really isn't a "group" that rides around here that is challenging or really competitive so Im mostly stuck training by myself which I don't mind but don't get that group dynamic. So my only group style racing experience is from the actual races I have done. Which at this point equals two.

gsteinb

By what process did you come up with 195 as FTP? If you train a lot, I'd ask what's a lot? And I reckon if your FTP is 195 and you actually train a lot that you're not doing the right kind of training.

Sizzle82

Right I got you. And yes my focus this year will be mostly crits, so the above threshold work would be true. I have a decent base but would like to improve my FTP a little so I have a better watt/kg. So my thought would be a solid base program then a 6-8 program focused on anaerobic power, 105+ FTP power.

Sizzle82

Trainer road 20 minute test, indoor trainer with powertap, and this was done beginning of the year just training for a couple triathlons. Since then I haven't been doing a lot so I guess I wouldn't say I train a lot right now so maybe that wasn't the right way to say it. When I am training for something I train consistent and I am dedicated. Most of my bike training has involved steady state stuff just for triathlons. But at the end of the season decided what the hell and tried a couple crits and really enjoyed them and decided to focus on that this coming year. So I will agree with you that I haven't been doing the right kind of training.

b;17242138]By what process did you come up with 195 as FTP? If you train a lot, I'd ask what's a lot? And I reckon if your FTP is 195 and you actually train a lot that you're not doing the right kind of training.[/QUOTE]

MDcatV

partially disagree with the 1st part, agree with 2nd part. because:

that's about 3 w/kg. I don't want to suggest that w/kg is everything, but that's pretty low. heck, that's CDR territory

solid base and FTP development helps everything

FTP, if correct, is pretty low. I'm also betting that group riding skills and comfort are equivalently (is that a word?) low. based on replies in this post, i think a coach would do you some good for season planning, even if you just get a consultation for a macro look at your season telling you what general focus you should be doing when relative to your race schedule (vs. daily coaching and feedback, adjustments, etc.) it would point you in the right direction.

Sizzle82

TO MDcatV Right I get you and I understand. I come from a running backround and I know my skinny ass doesn't make a lot of power so I know I need a improvement on that. Its been about a year since Ive tested that so Im not sure that's even correct. I have got a couple PM's about coaching so Im gonna look into it and see if maybe there is something for me even if its some short term specific focus stuff.

carpediemracing 

Makes sense. Group rides, even if it's a small group (like 2-4 others) will still help you learn how to follow wheels etc. In fact you should spend some time with just one or two riders so you can practice drafting really closely without worrying about too many external factors (like the guy 10 riders ahead braking). You can also practice bumping. This helps develop confidence in a group. Finally, as a super deluxe thing, you can practice touching wheels. The last exercise guarantees falling so do it on grass with lots of stuff on.

Speed is usually the issue with new racers, like it was with me. They're fine with steady efforts because they "train" but when the stuff hits the fan they go flying off the back. If you ride on your own you can experiment with max speed. It doesn't require anyone else. If nothing else the speed exercise is a good way of doing intervals.

Your age? Even an approximation? It's a way to get a really coarse idea if you're on a curve up or down or plateau.

carpediemracing 

Hey! If I hit 3 w/kg I'm totally psyched.

hahaha. Seriously, that's actually true. 2010 I was 3.1 w/kg, enough to upgrade to Cat 2. But my w/CdA is pretty good as I'm small on the bike, just very dense.

Currently w/kg is in the 2.6 w/kg. I'm 20 watts weaker and about 20 lbs heavier (9+ kg). However even with that I can win Cat3 or M45 field sprints. Not races. Field sprints.