tetonrider

i agree. #s posted from workouts are insane if true (i have no reason to doubt). those are race-winning #s for sure. maybe just a change of tactics/application of them.

TheKillerPenguin

Yurp, they're accurate, and yurp, change in tactics is what's on the plate. FWIW my state jersey came from one of the few times I've taken a real all-in chance, my mindset needs to change from being afraid to lose points to knowing they'll come at some point regardless. It's time to do stuff instead of following wheels.

carpediemracing 

I missed this part. Sounds great.

carpediemracing 

Although I hate to say it as a competitor, this is good advice. The key is not going too early.

My teammate at Limerock that was our break guy simply couldn't wait to go, and in fact the counter off his first attack led to you and @globecanvas break. He ended up too cooked to go. He went super early at Nutmeg as well, I think it was Nutmeg. Problem was that everyone could still chase, just like they could at Limerock. Imagine if you'd been sitting in when the break went at Limerock. It took a massive, massive effort to bring you guys back. Now imagine counterattacking out of the field just after the break got caught? The field would have been absolutely annihilated.

At Nutmeg (I think) I told same teammate to wait until 5-7 to go, when guys were pretty tired. I think teammate started attacking 2-3 laps in, when everyone was fresh. There's a lot of 500-700w pulls in the field 2-3 laps into a race. After 20-30 laps? Not as many guys willing/able to put down a steady 400-500w to bring back an attack. That same teammate, after attacking all day, got away cleanly at about 3 to go in a different race recently, I can't remember which one. He and one or two other guys had a solid gap, but he admitted after the race he was too cooked to keep going, from all his previous efforts. Etc.

gsteinb

you should race with the old guys. masters races sound easier.

Grumpy McTrumpy

that would not have worked at Bristol. You get to the first hill, you go as hard as you can, you get to the second hill, you go as hard as you can.

repeat 6x.

The winner is he who survives.

Ygduf

my newest revelation, the one that's lead to 4 straight top-5 finishes in 4 weekends (essentially wins for me given the course and my particular type of horse and mindset right now) is that my key is to probe for the break often, not necessarily that hard. I just go to the far side of the road and try to ride away from the pack. If they chase, I stop. If they give me rope, I wait until I'm around the next corner and then I jump from my spot 5-10s up on the field.

I can't out muscle 50 guys, but if my first 10 probing moves get chased back, people start to doubt and no one wants to be the guy to pull back number 11. Once I'm clear, then the race starts and I hope to make the chase hard enough that only a fraction of the pack makes it to me.
@thekillerpenguin has numbers 10% higher than mine and weight 10% lower than mine. Once he gets clear it should be simple to work the break over and start attacking it with 5-6 miles to go and stick it solo. I need to work on my courage to do this last part, too. Easier said than done, of course.

mike868y

didn't we have this conversation at purgatory?

well everyone knows the east coast is harder so...

globecanvas

That's where I have trouble Sunday I hitchhiked off a move and then rolled away just before he got caught, not very hard at all, and the pack gave me like 15 seconds right away and I was out of sight. Maybe 45 minutes left in a 2:15 race. I did about 105-110% for 5 minutes or so, still nobody in sight, then wasn't really sure what to do. I'm not used to being OTF solo!

I doubt I could even have managed even 4 w/kg for the remainder of the race, and it didn't seem feasible that I could stay away with that level of effort. Do you ignore the numbers and just try to settle in and see what happens? Or pick a sustainable number and hope somebody bridges before you get caught?

What I ended up doing was softpedaling until the pack was in sight, pretend to be dying, wait for them to catch and go with the counter.

gsteinb

it's possible that they forget about you and you end up sticking. once you've got the gap why not have at it? it wouldn't make sense to ride a 20 min pace when there's 45 minutes left…but why not dig a little deeper. It's situational, of course, with the race stacked the way that one was what was your best shot for a result? Off the front or back in that field? Dollars to donuts one of the two strongest guys in that race would have bridged to you at some point.

globecanvas

You could run that race 10 times and in 9 of them either Roger or Andreas wins off the front. They are a killer combination because you can't jump on both of them every time, and Roger seems to be able to just go and go and go again. He countered himself like 3 times before it stuck.

Anyway, if I find myself in a similar situation again, I'll try to stick it out a bit longer to see what happens.

misterwaterfall

I was talking to a local racer who wins a lot about similar situations, more so slanted to going hard early in a race to get the break established and gap opened. He said, worry about the end of the race when you make it to the end of the race. Go as hard as you think you can, then a little bit harder. Granted, he has a huge motor but the couple successful breaks that I've started and been in this season I did the same thing. Went deep to start, kept it rolling, and recovered when I could. This is bike racing, not rocket science.

Ygduf

I usually just ride at threshold, not the number but the PE of 9 or 9.5. I leave a little in case I get caught by a chase and need to jump on, but I don't leave much.

Make those ****ers work so hard at chasing you that when they get there they take a rest and you can sit on the back. I then usually fake being completely blown and refuse to work for 10-20 minutes.

It took me a while to get used to being OTF. I won a big cat4 race that way though, and ever since then I've known that I'm not a joke up the road, assured to crack and lose. Once you stick one, you sort of feel like, at least I feel like it's disrespectful for them to give me too much rope. That's my real motivation when I'm out alone.

This year I spent 30 minutes alone at Knights Ferry (won p12), an hour alone at Pine Flat (2nd to teammate), and hour at Copperopolis (4th, caught by a break/chase), 10min at Dash for Cash (2nd, ended up working with 1 other for 18/20 primes), an hour at Wente RR (6th, caught by chase, teammate I was setting up flatted), 15 minutes alone at Red Kite Bump (4th, caught by chase/break)... and probably some more that I can't remember.

You stop feeling weird about it after a while. If they want to give me rope, I'm going to try and use it. Waiting for a sprint doesn't make sense for me. At least if I'm OTF, my teammates get a free ride until I'm caught.

shovelhd

I've won a bunch and lost a few races by soloing OTF. It's all about timing the catch and managing effort. I've never done it successfully by power, only RPE.

Andy STi

No offense to you and I know you're very strong but what kind of clueless dudes are you racing against?
"Oh there goes Fudgy should we do something? Naw, it's ok he'll die out there, we don't need to chase or go with."
Seriously?

Ygduf

see previous posts for how I do it. volume of weaker attempts, eventually they let one get too far and then I go hard and it takes commitment to bring me back. See also that I barely ever win, so most all the time the winner (not me) played it right and waited for someone else to bring me back. Give and take.

mattm

Practice crit/Worlds tonight, didn't win but went about as hard as I could have.

Fudgy would be proud, I even went otf solo a few times! A few weeks ago I was able to hold them off for the last few (2 mi) laps, but not this time.

globecanvas

What goes wrong if you try to pace by power? Don't go hard enough, go too hard, don't get zen enough, what?

shovelhd

Looking at the numbers messes with my head. It's similar to why some guys tape over the power field on their Garmin screen or have a special test screen that they use during an FTP test. It distracts from listening to your body and being hyper aware of what's going on around you. I guess you could relate it to zen or spirituality, the latter I believe in. Maybe it's just me. Part of the problem is that I don't pace myself well at the limit. I don't do TT's. When I'm away I'm regulating power at many levels. Looking for that sight dip in the road for a second of rest. Figuring when to turn the power on up a grade to maximize momentum and making sure to get a moment of rest just before. Backing off a little with two to go because I know they're back there staring at each other and I can let my HR recover a few points before going flat out on the last lap. I can't see how I can concentrate on all that stuff while processing numbers on a screen. I have used road speed and HR as check points. For some reason they don't mess with my head like power does.

Hope this helps.

gsteinb

p&r

shovelhd

The short non P&R answer: I am not a horse like Fudgy.

globecanvas

Sounds like some great advice, and also sounds fun. I look forward to trying it out for real.

Ygduf

I look at the power and think "that's OK", but the number goes down, relative to threshold or whatever, based on how hard the race has been to that point. No sense looking at 300 and feeling bad that it isn't 340 if I'm 90 minutes into a hard RR. I just trust my legs and systems to know that PE 9 or whatever is hard for me is hard for others too.

Ygduf

Most of this paragraph above is "train with power, race with pace" stuff. Solo, you have to go a little harder up hills and ease a bit when speed gets 27-28-30+ on downhills. Keep power on, but the difference in speed on a downhill at 250 vs 300 is negligible, but the level of effort difference is not. Save it for when it matters more, like a little rise, etc...

Other stuff I think about in the moment is that one person cannot outpower an entire peloton. If they are determined, they will catch you. But I try to think of their mindset too. When I can be seen by the pack, I probably go a little easier but try to stay smooth. Never ever let them see you look back. The moment you crest a rise or something that breaks line of sight, I probably go 150% for 10 seconds to increase the gap so the next time I'm seen, I'm farther away. Demoralize your opponents.

It's also rarely 1 vs 30. More likely 1 vs. 3-4 chasers. So games like that, stretching the gap when you go behind a hill or building for 15 seconds count. Those dudes that are working start to wonder whether they will catch you, and if they do, did they just drag 30 free-loaders to you so they, tired from chasing, can get dropped.

Ultimate goal is to get them to start racing for 2nd. Once they start cat and mousing with each other, you can really put time into a field without having to work that hard.

TheKillerPenguin

This is good advice, and something I'm going to be thinking about in my next race. Thanks for writing it up.