i understand where thoughts like this come from. but really, does it matter; nor does it answer or contribute to this thread. there is no reason to be bashing. some people like to take their lumps with a higher cost associated.

that being said, i am familiar with those frame brands only by name but i am certain they are quality and would be more than adequate for a first bike. i would like to offer my concern that as your first FG bike you will more than likely wreck (to what degree is uncertain). Thus, it may be wise to work your way into your ultimate dream bike.

i would suggest you do a conversion or buy a low cost <300 fame and build it up yourself or order the parts you desire and have it built. you can always transfer those parts to a more quality frame later as your skills and knowledge become more proficient.